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Nagel
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Re: idea

Postby Nagel » Fri 06 May, 2011 21:37

I see one potential problem, people are insistent this will create more 'action' but I disagree.

Assuming someone above or around the cap shoots someone and gets a large amount of debris, they could be stuck simming for ever. Lets say I had 220million fleet and lost 20mil killing 80mil getting 40mil debris, lets see how long it would take me to 'use' those debris.

23,000 Prod, 20% of that is 4,600prod. Even if I double prod the credits (9,200 prod) we are talking 4,347 HOURS of production queues.

Please explain how my spending 4,347hours producing my profits will encourage me to shoot stuff?

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Re: idea

Postby Hellion » Sat 07 May, 2011 07:12

Bagelsloth wrote:I see one potential problem, people are insistent this will create more 'action' but I disagree.

Assuming someone above or around the cap shoots someone and gets a large amount of debris, they could be stuck simming for ever. Lets say I had 220million fleet and lost 20mil killing 80mil getting 40mil debris, lets see how long it would take me to 'use' those debris.

23,000 Prod, 20% of that is 4,600prod. Even if I double prod the credits (9,200 prod) we are talking 4,347 HOURS of production queues.

Please explain how my spending 4,347hours producing my profits will encourage me to shoot stuff?


Ya thats partially why I was against the idea of reducing people above the cap. Just accelerate the people below and keep the people above at normal. It would promote the use of fleet to stay at the larger cap.

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Re: idea

Postby Winchester » Sat 07 May, 2011 15:36

Bagelsloth wrote:I see one potential problem, people are insistent this will create more 'action' but I disagree.

Assuming someone above or around the cap shoots someone and gets a large amount of debris, they could be stuck simming for ever. Lets say I had 220million fleet and lost 20mil killing 80mil getting 40mil debris, lets see how long it would take me to 'use' those debris.

23,000 Prod, 20% of that is 4,600prod. Even if I double prod the credits (9,200 prod) we are talking 4,347 HOURS of production queues.

Please explain how my spending 4,347hours producing my profits will encourage me to shoot stuff?


If you're over the cap and make a hit that doesn't drop you below the cap, you bank the credits until you make another hit. With the ability to rapidly replace fleet once you're below the cap, I personally think that people will be more adventurous with their fleet. I mean, really, when most people are going to be pushing 100m at any given time, how many people are really only going to lose 20m in an attack? Levi stackers, perhaps? In any case, it's not that big of a deal. Just bank the credits until you're below the cap, or save for a new base or tech.

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Re: idea

Postby SpeedySurfer » Sat 07 May, 2011 16:18

I think that slowing down people's prod is a bad idea.

I also think that giving everyone below the cap a boost is a bad idea.

Leave those you think have too much fleet alone, they'll get derbed or use it. They worked to get that fleet. As for the boost, I reckon you should get it up until you get to server average fleet, with the boost lessening as you get closer.

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Re: idea

Postby Winchester » Sat 07 May, 2011 16:25

SpeedySurfer wrote:I think that slowing down people's prod is a bad idea.

I also think that giving everyone below the cap a boost is a bad idea.

Leave those you think have too much fleet alone, they'll get derbed or use it. They worked to get that fleet. As for the boost, I reckon you should get it up until you get to server average fleet, with the boost lessening as you get closer.


There are, what, five people in the game with more fleet than the soft cap for this idea would allow? Also, the boost is so that it doesn't take over a year to rebuild your fleet when you lost it. Seriously, at 23k prod, assuming you had the credits to go non-stop, it would take 182 days to replace 100m fleet. At the average upper level econ of 10k, it would take 417 days to rebuild. That is a ridiculous amount of time, and from my experiences, it's one of the major reasons why people quit after losing their fleet. The boost allows you to quickly rebuild your fleet. How does this do anything but encourage more activity?

Oh, and the server average fleet? On Ceti, that's what, 40m? While there are people with over 200m? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. Building the remaining 60m at your 10k econ would take 250 days, which means that you aren't saving anything.

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Re: idea

Postby Starfire » Sat 07 May, 2011 17:15

Sounds like a very good idea, would certainly stop quite a few people quitting.

My only concern is if you were at 195 mill and queued 20 mill fleet would your production slow once you've built 5 mill and the 15 mill in your queues is subject to the deceased production cap?

Or carry on as normal until you hit 215 mill and then queues from that point on are subject to the decreased production cap?

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Re: idea

Postby Winchester » Sun 08 May, 2011 02:56

I don't think it's feasible from a resources perspective to slow down units already in queue. It would have to check your total fleet every second/minute/hour/whatever, instead of every time you queue fleet. The lag would be enormous.

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Re: idea

Postby blahblah » Sun 08 May, 2011 04:34

Ribbentrop wrote:I don't think it's feasible from a resources perspective to slow down units already in queue. It would have to check your total fleet every second/minute/hour/whatever, instead of every time you queue fleet. The lag would be enormous.

I was wondering before if this was a potentual bug
someone burns a heap fleet then ques a s*t load on fast production
say 100mil fleet generates 150mil derbs
so a 200mil fleet could jump to a 250mil fleet real quick
or someone could bank credits from several hits then use it to fast produce way over the limit

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Re: idea

Postby Hellion » Sun 08 May, 2011 07:59

Ribbentrop wrote:
SpeedySurfer wrote:I think that slowing down people's prod is a bad idea.

I also think that giving everyone below the cap a boost is a bad idea.

Leave those you think have too much fleet alone, they'll get derbed or use it. They worked to get that fleet. As for the boost, I reckon you should get it up until you get to server average fleet, with the boost lessening as you get closer.


There are, what, five people in the game with more fleet than the soft cap for this idea would allow? Also, the boost is so that it doesn't take over a year to rebuild your fleet when you lost it. Seriously, at 23k prod, assuming you had the credits to go non-stop, it would take 182 days to replace 100m fleet. At the average upper level econ of 10k, it would take 417 days to rebuild. That is a ridiculous amount of time, and from my experiences, it's one of the major reasons why people quit after losing their fleet. The boost allows you to quickly rebuild your fleet. How does this do anything but encourage more activity?

Oh, and the server average fleet? On Ceti, that's what, 40m? While there are people with over 200m? Sorry, but that just doesn't cut it. Building the remaining 60m at your 10k econ would take 250 days, which means that you aren't saving anything.



Mostly to add to this... many of the people derbed usually go much more inactive after the initial derbing and much of the time it ends with them eventually being derbed again with only partial mobile leftover. Usually once people get derbed that 2nd time I see most of those accounts just get passed over to other players already playing. Then it becomes a major pain to hand that off... then those accounts build up under a few owners. The idea of having to wait as ribbon stated about half a year to even think of encountering former opponents around the same strength is a bit much for anyone to feel like doing it again.

So pretty much all for the idea that maybe it will save some players that seriously dont feel like wasting half a year watching everyone else in order to one day play against other high levels again.

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Re: idea

Postby Nagel » Mon 09 May, 2011 01:29

Regarding banking if you are above the cap, no way is that a possibility.

Some people will be needing to bank 20,30,40mil on a steady op, Kris would have had to bank 100mil on our last op. I fail to see how this is a good way to treat those of us that have thrown a lot of energy at creating massive prod caps.

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Re: idea

Postby Winchester » Mon 09 May, 2011 06:10

Bagelsloth wrote:Regarding banking if you are above the cap, no way is that a possibility.

Some people will be needing to bank 20,30,40mil on a steady op, Kris would have had to bank 100mil on our last op. I fail to see how this is a good way to treat those of us that have thrown a lot of energy at creating massive prod caps.


I was thinking about this, and I might have a solution. Bear with me for a moment.

New unit: Liquidator
Cost/stats: Identical to a recycler
Collects debris at a rate of 10 credits per hour. Only collects debris when owner's fleet exceeds fleet cap. All debris collected goes into the bank idea found within the OP. Banked funds can only be used when owner is below the fleet cap.

Modification to the bank idea: funds in the bank can be pillaged under the following circumstances: the player's fleet exceeds the fleet cap; the player collected and banked debris within the last 12 hours. Pillage is 5% of banked funds when the pillage is 100+ hours; decreases accordingly by hours since last pillage.

I think this covers your objection, Nagel. It allows people above the cap to bank most of those credits, while still preventing them from being 100% secure. The idea is that the pillage window lets hunters have a chance at taking a chunk of the debris, but only when the victim recently collected. Twelve hours is a reasonable window for that. Additionally, it lets people choose when and where they want to bank credits; they can always use normal recyclers and use tech/structure banks.

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Re: idea

Postby SpeedySurfer » Mon 09 May, 2011 10:32

And yet people under the cap get secure free money and can still safely bank derbs?

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Re: idea

Postby Winchester » Mon 09 May, 2011 13:00

SpeedySurfer wrote:And yet people under the cap get secure free money and can still safely bank derbs?


People under the cap can only put debris into manual banks, which as Nagel pointed out are quite limited.

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Re: idea

Postby Nagel » Mon 09 May, 2011 16:57

Whilst is does remove the issue of banking the cash, and does it very well I must say, it does not reduce the issue that those that managed to get that high in fleet are been 'punished' for it.

Do not get me wrong, most people that break the 200mil barrier have done it by simming, but some do it the hard way by shooting and grind their cap. I just do not see why they should be punished by losing 80% of their prod cap.

I like most of the idea, a way of boosting people way under the server average fleet of getting their ASAP, I just do not see why you need to hinder those over it as well. May just be me.

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Re: idea

Postby Hellion » Mon 09 May, 2011 18:26

I dont think the idea should require another unit for it to work. So to actually benefit from said idea we need to make the normal 10-15% of our fleet cyclers and another X% these just to function. Unless the unit is a combat unit that is useful as fodder it will make the unit more of a problem than anything else.

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