An Improvement to Corvettes

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Achilles
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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Achilles » Wed 26 Oct, 2011 17:46

Pylinaer wrote:Fighter dropping 'Vettes... lol that just sounds weird. either way, ASSUMING hangar blocks and .5 hangars would work... I have /signed onto this idea


half a hanger unit or 5? cause i find the .5 a rather interesting concept

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Winchester » Wed 26 Oct, 2011 17:47

I haven't had time to run new numbers yet, but either way, I vote that we move this to the Workshop.

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby JonMace » Wed 26 Oct, 2011 18:03

I vote its scrapped or becomes a new ship worked on new costs. To change things as they are would mean that those that specialized in FGs, would be hunted down by the new hunter killers CVs

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Descolada » Wed 26 Oct, 2011 22:43

Achilles wrote:
Pylinaer wrote:Fighter dropping 'Vettes... lol that just sounds weird. either way, ASSUMING hangar blocks and .5 hangars would work... I have /signed onto this idea


half a hanger unit or 5? cause i find the .5 a rather interesting concept

1 hanger unit :whisle:

it was discussed what to do in case of HB/IB's as they are 2 hanger units, but say 50 vettes "share" a 50 space hanger or something like that...and you could transport 25 HB/IB's...

this idea would certainly spice up early vette wars :D

tl;dr
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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Pylinaer » Wed 26 Oct, 2011 23:33

Achilles wrote:
Pylinaer wrote:Fighter dropping 'Vettes... lol that just sounds weird. either way, ASSUMING hangar blocks and .5 hangars would work... I have /signed onto this idea


half a hanger unit or 5? cause i find the .5 a rather interesting concept


I hate zeroes, sorry. it would be 0.5 Hangar

Ribbentrop wrote:I haven't had time to run new numbers yet, but either way, I vote that we move this to the Workshop.


Agreed

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Philosopher Cody » Thu 27 Oct, 2011 05:21

I think if this were to go into effect, then destroyers would have to be changed. Ultimately you are giving corvettes some hanger space if I have understood this idea correctly. Right now destroyers are twice the price compared to corvettes have twice the power and armour but slower speed and different weapon tech.

Further another point mentioning is how one would only need to research one weapon tech, that being laser. At least with frigates you need to research missiles.

I will accept the change provided that corvettes nolonger use laser as their weapon choice. Make it something like Disruptor instead, that way the power remains in check, and someone is forced to research another tech instead of just using Fighters and Corvettes.

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Descolada » Fri 28 Oct, 2011 16:34

Commander Cody wrote:I think if this were to go into effect, then destroyers would have to be changed. Ultimately you are giving corvettes some hanger space if I have understood this idea correctly. Right now destroyers are twice the price compared to corvettes have twice the power and armour but slower speed and different weapon tech.

Further another point mentioning is how one would only need to research one weapon tech, that being laser. At least with frigates you need to research missiles.

I will accept the change provided that corvettes nolonger use laser as their weapon choice. Make it something like Disruptor instead, that way the power remains in check, and someone is forced to research another tech instead of just using Fighters and Corvettes.

When you fighter drop only Laser is used, thats an accepted spec. So why not vettes with 1 hanger space and Disruptor? I know its an example...but Disruptor vettes is a bit of a ridiculous concept in my opinion. When it comes to trasporting 20 vettes=1 carrier when it comes to cost, so your sacfrificing money for speed...lots of speed

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Delm Korval » Fri 28 Oct, 2011 22:47

when fighter dropping you are accepting the risk that your carriers will get shot when you land, if you have corvettes with hangers you'll have just laser tech and solid offensive unit, plus lots and lots of speed...

I can see a use for this, and also would like to see in the workshop, but as mentioned, if do this you're probably going to have to do similar with destroyers next, might as well throw out adding destroyers with 1 hanger each if gonna have vettes with a half hanger each

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Philosopher Cody » Sun 30 Oct, 2011 03:48

Elite0fDarkne55 wrote:
Commander Cody wrote:I think if this were to go into effect, then destroyers would have to be changed. Ultimately you are giving corvettes some hanger space if I have understood this idea correctly. Right now destroyers are twice the price compared to corvettes have twice the power and armour but slower speed and different weapon tech.

Further another point mentioning is how one would only need to research one weapon tech, that being laser. At least with frigates you need to research missiles.

I will accept the change provided that corvettes nolonger use laser as their weapon choice. Make it something like Disruptor instead, that way the power remains in check, and someone is forced to research another tech instead of just using Fighters and Corvettes.

When you fighter drop only Laser is used, thats an accepted spec. So why not vettes with 1 hanger space and Disruptor? I know its an example...but Disruptor vettes is a bit of a ridiculous concept in my opinion. When it comes to trasporting 20 vettes=1 carrier when it comes to cost, so your sacfrificing money for speed...lots of speed


Because when you move your carriers as they currently exist, they do not far well when attacking. I do not see anyone attacking with their Carriers in AE except if it is more of a combat ship such as Frigates or Cruisers. Furthermore the carrier unit in general does not match the same tech spec as the primary unit being transported. Sure it can in some cases, but in general it does not.

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Wlerin » Sun 30 Oct, 2011 05:52

Commander Cody wrote:
Elite0fDarkne55 wrote:When you fighter drop only Laser is used, thats an accepted spec. So why not vettes with 1 hanger space and Disruptor? I know its an example...but Disruptor vettes is a bit of a ridiculous concept in my opinion. When it comes to trasporting 20 vettes=1 carrier when it comes to cost, so your sacfrificing money for speed...lots of speed


Because when you move your carriers as they currently exist, they do not far well when attacking. I do not see anyone attacking with their Carriers in AE except if it is more of a combat ship such as Frigates or Cruisers. Furthermore the carrier unit in general does not match the same tech spec as the primary unit being transported. Sure it can in some cases, but in general it does not.

Comparison of the cheaper specs:

FC+FT: 800 base power per 4500 credits, however only costs 2000 credits per 800 power to replace, assuming no FCs are lost. Only uses Laser. Slow. Power equivalent to Cruiser-level shields.

CV: 800 base power per 4000 credits. Replacement cost remains the same. Only uses Laser. Very fast. Power equivalent to Heavy Cruiser-level shields.

Corvette fleets struggle to kill anything other than naked cruisers/carriers for positive ratios. They can be used in small numbers for rec sniping and other guerrilla tactics, and large swarms can be used to chase down small escaping HC/BS fleets. Besides that, everything else they can do is done better by other units.

DE: 800 base power per 4000 credits. Replacement cost remains the same. Uses Plasma, can benefit from Laser. Fast. Power equiv. to Disruptor Turret-level shields.

Can kill cruisers, heavy cruisers, carriers, fleet carriers, photon turrets, and (in some cases) disruptor turrets for ratios equal to or better than those of corvettes, due to their higher power-vs-shields and identical armor cost. They lack the speed of corvettes, yet are still faster than most of their potential targets. In fact, the only units which can be killed more efficiently by Corvettes than by Destroyers are Recyclers and Scout Ships.

FR+FT: 800 base power per 4000 credits. Replacement costs remain the same. Uses Missile and Laser. Fast. Power equivalent to Planetary Ring-level shields.

Fighters, which supply 40% of that 800 power [320 power, 800 credits], are ineffective against the FR+FT fleet's primary targets, namely HC and BS. They are included primarily for the extra armour, and the occasional fighter drop. FR+FT can also be used to hunt Cruisers, in which case the fighters actually do some damage, but they are less efficient at this than FT, CV, or DE.

Corvettes, with the proposed 1/2 hangar (not 1 as in the original post):

CV+FT: 800 base power per 3600 credits. Replacement costs are the same. Uses Laser. Very fast. Power equivalent to Heavy Cruiser-level shields.

This improvement gives them added survivability and a small amount of extra damage vs. their primary targets. It improves their ability to attack Cruisers and Carriers (haven't yet compared it to naked DE, though I should), and allows them to kill a few extra recyclers here and there. In addition, just as improved Frigates led to a resurgence in Dreadnought usage, it is predicted that improving Corvettes in this manner would lead to an increase in Battleship usage, giving battleships a main spec to hit aside from capitals, and increasing the overall number of viable specialization choices.

I've run sims with the original single hangar per vette, and while corvettes saw improved ratios vs. cruisers, frigates still came out ahead against HC, as expected.


Things to do:

Rerun the sims using 1/2 hangar corvettes.
Run the same numbers using fighter swarms, naked corvettes, naked destroyers, and FR+FT.
Come up with realistic technology levels for each of the preceding players as well as their hypothetical targets (CR/HC and BS).
Compare cost per power for FC+FT after several refills with that of the above.

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Descolada » Mon 31 Oct, 2011 01:06

Nice to see this went to the Workshop :)

1/2 a hanger?...wouldn't 1 be better and more sensible? :eh:

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Wlerin » Mon 31 Oct, 2011 04:20

Did you read the thread?

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Descolada » Mon 31 Oct, 2011 16:58

Yes actually..I was responding to this...

[quote="Wlerin"]
Things to do:

Rerun the sims using 1/2 hangar corvettes.
[quote]

And I took that as, 1 vette= 0.5 hanger space, though if I misinterpreted you have my apoligies.

I thought .5 hanger space was an interesting concept...but "weird" so to say, as all existing hanger units can carry even numbers, and an odd number is enough.

Though if I misinterpreted...again, you have my apoligies

tl;dr
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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby Ugborg » Mon 31 Oct, 2011 21:05

Elite0fDarkne55 wrote:Yes actually..I was responding to this...

Wlerin wrote:Things to do:

Rerun the sims using 1/2 hangar corvettes.


And I took that as, 1 vette= 0.5 hanger space, though if I misinterpreted you have my apoligies.

I thought .5 hanger space was an interesting concept...but "weird" so to say, as all existing hanger units can carry even numbers, and an odd number is enough.

Though if I misinterpreted...again, you have my apoligies
[/quote]
Yes, we came to the conclusion that 1 hangar would likely be too many, and should try it with 0.5 hangar space instead.

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Re: An Improvement to Corvettes

Postby albend » Mon 31 Oct, 2011 21:48

Elite0fDarkne55 wrote:Yes actually..I was responding to this...

Wlerin wrote:Things to do:

Rerun the sims using 1/2 hangar corvettes.

And I took that as, 1 vette= 0.5 hanger space, though if I misinterpreted you have my apoligies.

I thought .5 hanger space was an interesting concept...but "weird" so to say, as all existing hanger units can carry even numbers, and an odd number is enough.

Though if I misinterpreted...again, you have my apoligies

I think he meant the whole thread, in which some numbers where worked that explain the problem with 1 hangar space.

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