Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

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Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Ferdoc » Wed 12 Sep, 2012 15:18

Well everyone what a surprise I’m back again as an OP, and so soon after posting one idea as well. This is a very quick concept that I just haven’t gotten around to writing up. Blobbing is a problem. A very nasty player created problem. Yes, this is an anti-blobbing concept along the ‘splash damage’ line of thought.

Mechanic
[(Shield Value * number of units destroyed ) * (defender level / attacker level) ]* unit modifier

This is done for each unit type that is fully destroyed, if a Levi goes from 1.00 to 0.01 there is no damage generated at all from the Levi. Additionally the damage is treated as if it was a power of 1 and N number of units attack, where N is the damage associated with the result. This is to allow the damage to ‘wash over’ the large numbers of unshielded units first and foremost of other associated fleets. The damage from this ‘splash’ cannot self-activate. XP is not generated for the attack on players damaged by this attack. Defenders get normal XP. This mechanic targets 2 other players with similar fleet values ( +/- 5 ‘ranks’ in fleet size) over the course of 48 hours. Mechanic cannot target anyone that is in your current guild, Guild-less players can harm anyone including other Guild-less.

Activation
The mechanic becomes ‘active’ for a player should their fleets have been in the same region as 40% of their guild total fleet or in the same system as 60% of their guild population. The time of the check I’ll leave up to the devs, to prevent people from planning around it. I would also suggest a change in it every so often to eliminate the ability of certain guilds from ‘timing’ the issue. The status follows players around and is activated only when they are hit. The damage can affect those who do not have this flag activated on their account. It lasts for 12 hours + # of hours you remained at a location which satisfied the requirement.

Examples

The shield value used in the examples and the modifier that is used for unit types.

Code: Select all

   sheild   modifier
ion bomber   2   2
ion frigate   2   2.5
cruiser   4   3.5
carrier   4   3.75
Heavey Cruiser   8   4.25
Battle Ship   20   4.75
Fleet Carrier   16   5
Dreadnought   40   12
Titan   60   18
Leviathan   80   26
Death Star   120   37

Example 1

Code: Select all

level 70 attacker
level 60 defender

kills 4,000 CR, 1,000 CA, 300 BS
attacker / defender modifier
0.857143

CR damage
48000
CA damage
12857
BS damage
24429
total damage
85286


Example 2

Code: Select all

Level 100 attacker
Level 100 defender

Kills 25,000 CR,  25,000 CA,  2,000 BS,  2,500 FC
attacker / defender modifier
1

CR damage
350000
CA damage
375000
BS damage
190000
FC damage
200000
total damage
1115000


Example 3

Code: Select all

Level 85.46 attacker
level 97.23 defender

Kills 75 Levi
attacker / defender modifier
1.137725

Levi damage
177485


Why?
To give a noticeable and significant drawback to massed guild fleets while still giving some means of operation for portions of the guild to actively go out and plan operations.

Notice
Standard notices apply. Challenge my math, provide math of your own. Don’t like it, ok, thanks for +1 your post count here, tip mod. Hate the concept, again thanks for +1 your post count here, tip mod. Have issue with the way I did something, suggest a better way. Read the rest of my notice in the FR Workshop in my Guild Technology thread, no this isn't shameless pimping. Its there and in detail, you can read it there. I cant be held responsible if you choose not to and run into a block.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Hellion » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 02:50

It would effectively cripple the idea of blobs... however as the idea is I don't really like it. It would have a lot of effect as is on blob crashes for one putting a massive advantage towards the attacker. As a smaller player its ideal to just suicide your entire fleet (minus RC of course) into larger enemies and the larger players to just 1 shot as they normally do.

Though its better than most splash damage ideas it adds a number of things for the server to check and I half expect this will add a good bit of lag to blob crashes that have hundreds of these already... Though I also don't really like the concept of splash damage even if its just towards the player hit. I would prefer anti-blob ideas to rely more heavily on the player themselves to make it less ideal. Similar to the idea of missile use would make it workable that if 2 guilds wanted to target each other one could send a number of super powered HBs (missiles). As with most splash damage ideas though im just not much of a fan...

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby sandalphon » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 05:08

-- The idea of anti-blob features based on X/% fleet of something doesn't really amuse me.
1. It can easily be bypassed by moving fleets from region, in this case. Even nowadays, in a big blob, dividing the fleet in galaxies is possible. I really can't see a way to "fix" this point.
2. Can be bypassed by diving the guild in smaller guilds. Example: instead of 1 guild in close 3 regions you can divide the guild in A, B, C so that there's 30-35% of guild population and fleet in each, not activating this feature. For this topic, I'd say it's much more fair to put a % variant of total fleet of server. Let's say 3%.

-- The part where it targets 2 players with similar fleet sizes really doesn't please me.
1. It's too random, IMHO. This is one big problem I don't like in most splash damage ideas. I can be targeted for things I can't predict, most being the fact that a friend or guild mate just moves his fleet.
2. I'd find more fair it the spread was divided among all members, either being equal damage or %, according the the percentage of fleet they have on the blob.

-- Guild limitation
1. The part where it doesn't deal damage to guild mates also disturbs me. What if I send a fleet to a blob location but one of the hundreds of players on the server manages to destroy my fleet first instead of the opposite? It's a very probable situation to happen and it would go around the purpose of this feature.

-- Damage dealt
1. If I got this right (with the damage being 1) this would probably affect more unshielded fleets. Is there a reason for it? To cause more damage on fighter based fleets, etc?
2. I'm not sure if this will matter that much, but wouldn't it target more speed based fleets? I don't think these are the players that should suffer with it. I'd prefer that the damage would just ignore the shield value of ships.

-- Questions
1. Would this feature do damage to anyone if there is no one outside the fleet range difference of 5%?
2. I've read it, but just to make sure... this time would be visible to every player, right?
3. Small detail: would the damage dealt consider the 1% bleedthrough of shielded units?
4. Just to make it clear, would this mechanism hit defenses too?

-- My opinion
1. I really dislike ideas based on X/% fleet somewhere and splash damage ideas in general.
2. The formula doesn't seem very intuitive. That plus the fact it affects a limited ammount of players makes this idea quite not simple - and I think one of AE's greatest features is the simplicity of gameplay.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Ferdoc » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 07:12

sandalphon wrote:-- The idea of anti-blob features based on X/% fleet of something doesn't really amuse me.
1. It can easily be bypassed by moving fleets from region, in this case. Even nowadays, in a big blob, dividing the fleet in galaxies is possible. I really can't see a way to "fix" this point.
2. Can be bypassed by diving the guild in smaller guilds. Example: instead of 1 guild in close 3 regions you can divide the guild in A, B, C so that there's 30-35% of guild population and fleet in each, not activating this feature. For this topic, I'd say it's much more fair to put a % variant of total fleet of server. Let's say 3%.


1 - Agreed. However even just splitting up the blob is a strong effect.
2 - If you divide the guild into smaller guilds, as you say, their threshold is lowered as well. If you take a guild with 100m total fleet, and divide it up into 30,35 and 35 in smaller guilds. They have 12, 14 and 14 as their respective values.

sandalphon wrote:-- The part where it targets 2 players with similar fleet sizes really doesn't please me.
1. It's too random, IMHO. This is one big problem I don't like in most splash damage ideas. I can be targeted for things I can't predict, most being the fact that a friend or guild mate just moves his fleet.
2. I'd find more fair it the spread was divided among all members, either being equal damage or %, according the the percentage of fleet they have on the blob.


1 - Too random? Its 1/9. Less random than commander kills ( 1/10). Additionally you CAN predict it. You know people above and below you will get hit, as such YOU can suffer from this effect.
2 - If you want to say its fair, sandalphon, I suggest you run the numbers and then come back at me with it. Until then its a meaningless comment that has no backing to it.

sandalphon wrote:-- Guild limitation
1. The part where it doesn't deal damage to guild mates also disturbs me. What if I send a fleet to a blob location but one of the hundreds of players on the server manages to destroy my fleet first instead of the opposite? It's a very probable situation to happen and it would go around the purpose of this feature.

1 - Ummm, not it wouldn't. The purpose of the feature is to a) give a significant drawback to blobing. b) give the drawback as a form of benefit to attackers. Turning it around and saying; Oh you're attacking a blob? Sorry there buddy, but now YOU have to deal with splash damage as well. It puts another hurdle in the way of the attacker when blobbing is already a significant problem. If the same problem is present on both sides of the combat equation, nothing's been changed.


sandalphon wrote:-- Damage dealt
1. If I got this right (with the damage being 1) this would probably affect more unshielded fleets. Is there a reason for it? To cause more damage on fighter based fleets, etc?
2. I'm not sure if this will matter that much, but wouldn't it target more speed based fleets? I don't think these are the players that should suffer with it. I'd prefer that the damage would just ignore the shield value of ships.


1 - two reasons. first spreading the damage out over FT, HB, IB, DT, CV, Frigate, CA, CR, HC, FC and maybe some BS and LV in place of a unit or two reduces the actual damage you deal SIGNIFICANTLY. Assuming you do 10,000 damage as one hit. In the above, you have 10 different units to divide the damage across, dealing 1,000 damage to each stack. Depending on shielding and armor tech that really isn't too much killed. Reducing it to 5, makes it 2,000 to units most vulnerable. Helping to speed up the clearing of units to allow for another burst of damage. secondly, its to give a significant snowball effect to the idea. Allowing for the speed of the damage to delt out in a significant manner and quickly is beneficial to the concept as a whole.

2 - Look back at the idea. Its incentive is to deal as much damage to the stackers as possible (something that I've seen people do naturally). that will deal out significant damage to others, yes some speed fleets will take hits, however its fleets within a total size that would be compared. It can allow for tactical targeting to try and divert the damage to specific people, IE targeting and taking down the number 1 player will only hit 2,3,4,5, or 6. Allowing for a downhill snowball effect to be planned. Likewise you could try to burn out certain people with the right 'bonuses' in the middle to spread out the damage across the enemy.

sandalphon wrote:-- Questions
1. Would this feature do damage to anyone if there is no one outside the fleet range difference of 5%?
2. I've read it, but just to make sure... this time would be visible to every player, right?
3. Small detail: would the damage dealt consider the 1% bleedthrough of shielded units?
4. Just to make it clear, would this mechanism hit defenses too?


1 - Where did I post anything about a percentile fleet range difference? I have a ranked range set up, but nothing percentile... can you quote where i have it please?
2 - No. Only the player can see it.
3 - I would assume it would follow normal AE combat mechanics.
4 - units only.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby sandalphon » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 12:11

2 - If you want to say its fair, sandalphon, I suggest you run the numbers and then come back at me with it. Until then its a meaningless comment that has no backing to it.
It's gonna hit a limited amount of players, only for the fact they have fleets similar to the defender. It's useless to run numbers on that; it's not the point. Why those people deserve to be hit more than others? And for a criteria that doesn't even depend on them?


1 - Where did I post anything about a percentile fleet range difference? I have a ranked range set up, but nothing percentile... can you quote where i have it please?
You're right. You've said "( +/- 5 ‘ranks’ in fleet size)" and I completely misunderstood despite reading it more than once.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Ferdoc » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 17:04

sandalphon wrote:
2 - If you want to say its fair, sandalphon, I suggest you run the numbers and then come back at me with it. Until then its a meaningless comment that has no backing to it.
It's gonna hit a limited amount of players, only for the fact they have fleets similar to the defender. It's useless to run numbers on that; it's not the point. Why those people deserve to be hit more than others? And for a criteria that doesn't even depend on them?


Actually it is the point sand. The amount of damage you end up doing is non-existent. Consider my example 2. 1,115,000 damage. That goes to 2 players making it 2,230,000 damage put out (as a total). If you spread that out over 250 players its 4,460 damage to each person. And if this is a multi guild blob of 500 people, 2,230 damage. How is that paltry damage significant at all? It'll be spread out over 5-6 units making it nothing more than a weak fighter wave. Also mechanically that will be significant amounts of lag. Which one reason I forgot to mention last time. This concept is only 3 attacks per attack. Yours would be hundreds per attack. Too much lag, and from prior discussions with Wizard, basically dismissed outright.


sandalphon wrote:
1 - Where did I post anything about a percentile fleet range difference? I have a ranked range set up, but nothing percentile... can you quote where i have it please?
You're right. You've said "( +/- 5 ‘ranks’ in fleet size)" and I completely misunderstood despite reading it more than once.


Its alright, this was a very quick write up and only proof read it once, I wouldn't have been surprised if you quoted me on it. Seeing that its based on rank, what do you think of it in that light?

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Wlerin » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 18:52

Hmmm. I don't like the delayed effect nature of this.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Rajam » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 04:19

I have a question that might have been answered but It didn't stick out. Is this damage dealt without an attacker? Meaning that when too many fleets get together(from the same guild) they just randomly start "Exploding"?

How about a flat damage increase given to an attacker( a blob debuff if you will)? After a certain amount of time a blob basically get easier to take down. Say, every 24 hours an attacker deals 5% more damage up to a maximum of 50%. You could include your movement chart into this so that you would need to move more than one galaxy away or whatever you thought was adequate. This might make it easier for a person to understand that blobbing was bad. You could always display the debuff as well to keep people looking at their fleets and make them want to move.

I'm honestly not trying to derail or change anything you proposed. It just seems pretty confusing, which is fine, but I'd prefer something a little more straightforward be implemented.

While I am not a blob fan I question the need to mitigate them when the Dev's don't seem interested in attempting to fix it.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Ferdoc » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 06:24

Wlerin wrote:Hmmm. I don't like the delayed effect nature of this.


mine elaborating please?

Rajam wrote:I have a question that might have been answered but It didn't stick out. Is this damage dealt without an attacker? Meaning that when too many fleets get together(from the same guild) they just randomly start "Exploding"?


Requires an attacker.

Rajam wrote:How about a flat damage increase given to an attacker( a blob debuff if you will)? After a certain amount of time a blob basically get easier to take down. Say, every 24 hours an attacker deals 5% more damage up to a maximum of 50%. You could include your movement chart into this so that you would need to move more than one galaxy away or whatever you thought was adequate.


Poncho an I looked at something like that a few years ago and decided that it was easily dismissed or too overbearing with no happy medium that we found in a few days of looking at it. Consider how far away blobs are, galaxy bands currently, or the oppressive nature of some, IE Kris in Ceti. Having a short distance, next galaxy over, can be a minimal problem at best.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Rajam » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 00:01

Ferdoc,

Since this is your idea you have the best grasp on it.

Please answer these questions:

IF you had a random 1Billion blob laying around somewhere that fell into your mechanic how much fleet do you imagine it taking MINIMUM to take it down?
Would the debris generated be the same as if you had the actual amount of fleet necessary without this mechanic?

Assume the following:

There would be relatively little fleet left at the blob location when done.
There is no need to guard the pile.

I'm just looking for bare amount necessary to take it down. I understand that your premise is based on different amounts of different units but I assume that you have a certain number in mind or a target if you will.

The reason I pose this question is to get a feel on how much easier it would be to take down a blob. From my perspective it would be best if a blob became easier to take down by smaller amounts of fleet IF the blob is not actively moving. Basically an active guild that can move and coordinate well enough should not be affected by any blob mechanic. A blob that is stagnant and never moves should become progressively easier to take out. By making the blob easy to take out you also run the risk, if your someone on the blob, of being ZF'd by your own people. This is an unintended benefit to a mechanic like that because it created angst/distrust among the blobbers to move. That should be the target for any blob mechanic, make the blobbers WANT to move. No one is going to trust that the GM & Co. will not want bases 22, 23, 24 etc.

Just some thoughts....

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby blahblah » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 01:05

Kris dos have a point though
this idea means that a blob has to be attacked to for it to be effective
if the idea is adjusted to allow sniping to be effective
then suicides become a problem
if it is left as it is then it has the possibility
that where a guild is dominant on a server
it just makes it easier for them to destroy any other blob's
and stop anyone else getting the amount of fleet needed available to hit back
effectively .
so on the servers where it is most needed to stop blobbing
it actually dos the opposite for the biggest guild
and effectively helps kill the server sooner

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Ferdoc » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 03:52

Rajam wrote:Ferdoc,

Since this is your idea you have the best grasp on it.

Please answer these questions:

IF you had a random 1Billion blob laying around somewhere that fell into your mechanic how much fleet do you imagine it taking MINIMUM to take it down?


Can I give a cop out answer due to the vague nature of the question? Everything always depends on techs,movement, timing, activity etc. However, to take your question and add a few other things, a nearly perfect attacking scenario;

1B enemy fleet
Equal Tech
No activity on part of the enemy

And including your comments from below

There would be relatively little fleet left at the blob location when done.
There is no need to guard the pile.


I could see 600m fleet attacking and bringing down the blob, perhaps even 550m or 500m if finding the perfect hit combinations.

Rajam wrote:Would the debris generated be the same as if you had the actual amount of fleet necessary without this mechanic?


you see, this is why I take so long to post things. I leave out little bits that require questions like this and a 'derp' moment from me. Debris is generated normally from this function, XP is not generated for the attacker, defender gets normal XP.

Rajam wrote:I'm just looking for bare amount necessary to take it down. I understand that your premise is based on different amounts of different units but I assume that you have a certain number in mind or a target if you will.


Rajam wrote:The reason I pose this question is to get a feel on how much easier it would be to take down a blob. From my perspective it would be best if a blob became easier to take down by smaller amounts of fleet IF the blob is not actively moving. Basically an active guild that can move and coordinate well enough should not be affected by any blob mechanic. A blob that is stagnant and never moves should become progressively easier to take out. By making the blob easy to take out you also run the risk, if your someone on the blob, of being ZF'd by your own people. This is an unintended benefit to a mechanic like that because it created angst/distrust among the blobbers to move. That should be the target for any blob mechanic, make the blobbers WANT to move. No one is going to trust that the GM & Co. will not want bases 22, 23, 24 etc.

Just some thoughts....


I agree, the timing of the anti-blob does feel fast paced to me. However that is somewhat of the needed nature of the mechanic. Also, if GM & Co. want 1,2 or maybe 3 bases more and are willing to sacrifice their active members to do so, that blob has more issues than what this concept brings to the table.

The reason why I didn't include a protective measure, like you suggest, is because I didn't want to strip the ability of someone who is kicked or left the guild to use this means, if possible, to inflict some damage. People can baaaw all they want about suiciders, but if you can't include something that prevents people from abusing the hell of out the concept, don't try to limit it. To say it again, if I can circumvent the 'protection' or 'limitation' on a concept, those factors don't do anything at all.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Rajam » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 04:10

I think that XP should be included for both sides of the equation. Including it for the attacker is an added incentive for people to attack blobs. Including it for the defender just makes sense.

As for the suiciders or people getting kicked and derbed or fleet getting killed by GM's. Using your guild mechanic negates most of this.

If a blob keeps moving then this mechanic should never even take effect. By keeping the players involved it will further motivate them into action.
If you are kicked and derbed by your guild you will not longer have this mechanic to worry about(it will no longer be your guild). This won't impact someone dropping and derbing.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby Ferdoc » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 05:24

Rajam wrote:I think that XP should be included for both sides of the equation. Including it for the attacker is an added incentive for people to attack blobs. Including it for the defender just makes sense.


I can see and somewhat agree with your comments. I left it out in the OP completely due to my attempt to err on the side of caution. I believed if my concept worked just fine without the XP and could be seen as positive without it, adding it in for the mechanic would sweeten the deal so to say.

Rajam wrote:As for the suiciders or people getting kicked and derbed or fleet getting killed by GM's. Using your guild mechanic negates most of this.

If a blob keeps moving then this mechanic should never even take effect. By keeping the players involved it will further motivate them into action.
If you are kicked and derbed by your guild you will not longer have this mechanic to worry about(it will no longer be your guild). This won't impact someone dropping and derbing.


It negates it on a few levels. It prevents the planned suicide from having an effect, the spy who joins builds up and wants to do a huge splash. It also prevents the unplanned, players who got too bored from having nothing to do and decide to quit with a bang. As you say, it creates a high disincentive from being stagnant.

As for the 'better case' presented here, do you feel numbers like that to be beneficial?

blahblah wrote:Kris dos have a point though
this idea means that a blob has to be attacked to for it to be effective


Correct. It requires player involvement to correct a player created issue. I'ld rather have the players be involved than an NPC-esque mechanic come in and have deus-ex-machina powers.

blahblah wrote:if the idea is adjusted to allow sniping to be effective
then suicides become a problem


Suicides should be a problem for stagnant blobs. Any GM who believes that they should just make the majority sit around while a few get to actually participate in open, active combat, should start to feel wary of leaving their members out in the cold.

blahblah wrote:if it is left as it is then it has the possibility
that where a guild is dominant on a server
it just makes it easier for them to destroy any other blob's
and stop anyone else getting the amount of fleet needed available to hit back
effectively .


What you said is still true of the current status of AE. Blob 1 beats Blob 2. Blob 1 can now farm and kill as they see fit preventing any major counter attack from blob 2 forces. The issue is relegated only to my concept. But rather AE as a whole. Since it isn't purely attributed to my concept it isn't an issue I need to worry about here.


blahblah wrote:so on the servers where it is most needed to stop blobbing
it actually dos the opposite for the biggest guild
and effectively helps kill the server sooner


I disagree with your logic here. You assume that all people who are allied with blob 1 agree completely with blob 1 and will always follow blob 1. It can be argued that some factions act to preserve their forces. Give them a tool where they can do some serious damage against the opposition and you create the opportunity to have them fight against a blobing force. Otherwise any addition, by your logic, that gives power to all will kill servers. Blobs will have more power and more ability to use said power. Since they have more power than their enemies they will kill the server. Ergo adding power across the board will make blobs game breaking.

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Re: Anti-blob mechanic Splash damage

Postby kris » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 15:01

the key is to keep blobs moving around.

The way to do this is with a natural disaster such as a black hole coming into galaxies and sucking up random amounts of peoples fleets in that galaxy other than the base owner.

This would force people to stay active and moving about and would prevent people simming on a huge blob for safety like they do today.


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