Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

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Erls
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Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Erls » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:13

If this could be moved to the FR Workshop, I would be eternally grateful.

Credits

I want to thank, first and foremost, the following for their input and advice:

Iblis, Probe/Purge, United/Balor, Tainted Auger, Kitty, and ~Lyra~ all were driving forces in the pre-forum, skype chat stage of this FR request.

Wlerin, Ferdoc, Sheldon, Desmond Cheese, and others all have contributed as well and should be recognized.

Concept

To create an AE servercerse that is completely balanced and fair to all players, regardless of cluster positioning. In effect, a truly balanced server.

This will be done by creating a new serververs. At its core, this will remove the strategtic advantage of the 00s and 50s (L to present) clusters that provide for the most security and best TRs. By creating a circular serververse every cluster will face invasion from both sides, as well as give the best TRs from multiple sides. This will lead to an increase in tactical planning as well as the diminishment of the lowers as the 'Pros' cluster. Each cluster will be equal in terms of AE.

Key Points

1- Once the server is created, no new clusters will be added. As such, a potential 'per-registration' would be highly encouraged to allow the admins to predict the interest in the upcoming server.
2- This change would ONLY take place on new servers. No current server would be affected by this update in serververse mechanics. I know this is a major deviation from the norm, but with how deep this concept goes I believe it not only makes sense but is all but required in order to make the concept work.
3- All galaxies would, ideally, be opened at the same time. IE, no more streamline. Each galaxy would have the same 'born on date', allowing for a truly balanced server start.

Serververse Map


Image

Thus, the server would become circular with clusters 'touching' each other via the shortest possible path.

This would create, in theory:

- A server that is 'fair' in theory. IE, every cluster starts at the same time and has the same benefits/negatives
- A chance for AE to run a 'REAL' pre-server registration to gauge interest/decide how many clusters are created
- Create more inter-cluster movement in the ~4 week to 28 week block, before WHs open by allowing clusters to be invaded from multiple sides/new clusters
- Increase the TR profitability for 'most' galaxies, with the 00 and 59 (recent server limits) being diminished.

Tactical Change

In essence, this would create a whole new way to approach AE tactically. For example, no longer would the 00s be consider the 'Pro Zone'. As each cluster has the same benefits and consequences, pre-server politics would become even more important. Beyond that, early server ability/skill/numbers would be hugely important, as locking down one's galaxies would play a much greater role in a guild's ability to become a power on the server. We could see much more pre-server politicking, which, while not a 'true' aspect of AE, has become one. And, beyond that, we could see a wider dispersal of the 'Pro' guilds on a server, leaving more space for newer players to grow.

Presentation

In my view, this concept could be presented in game via an addition to the 'Tables' tab titled 'Serververse' or something along those lines, with a pictorial adaption of what the server looks like in terms of transit as well as a numerical explanation of how it exisits.
Last edited by Erls on Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:22, edited 1 time in total.

LOVE/1st/SoT/DREAM/~HH~/KING Stream Killer

That's just bollocks and you know it. One-on-one you guys have proven time and again no one GUILD can compete against you. How is that gonna change when your recipe doesn't change.
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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Sandcastle Smasher » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:18

You mentioned in the last thread that the devs had some concerns.

Would you be able to post those concerns here so they can be properly addressed?

Edit:
Sheldon

-1
:bleh:

Edit2:
There are 3 serververse maps
Are we discussing the potential routes to be taken here?
Last edited by Sandcastle Smasher on Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Erls » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:20

Ahh yeah.

I knew I forgot something.. Editing the post now.

(Edit is how to 'show' the serververse to the common player)

LOVE/1st/SoT/DREAM/~HH~/KING Stream Killer

That's just bollocks and you know it. One-on-one you guys have proven time and again no one GUILD can compete against you. How is that gonna change when your recipe doesn't change.
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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Rajam » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:24

I like your idea and support it.

I will however say that I believe that this should be put on ALL servers not just the new ones. I realize that this is not part of your concept so don't let it distract from it but if what your proposing is "Fair" then why not put in on the old servers to balance them?

Also, before any cries about "You can't change our guild planning" or "You shouldn't change something that already works" Why not? You can absolutely change anything you want. There are any number of games out there that routinely do balance changes all the time. The only ones that will do this type of crying are those that lose some real or not benefit.

This idea, I believe is long over due.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Erls » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:28

The reason I do not suggest it for past servers is, in large part, due to 2 reasons:

1- TR distance. Where this idea to be adapted, TRs distances would be a huge pain to sort out.
2- JG networks. Guilds have their JG networks designed and built for the server as it exists. Were the server to change, said JG networks could become obsolete and render years of work worthless.

LOVE/1st/SoT/DREAM/~HH~/KING Stream Killer

That's just bollocks and you know it. One-on-one you guys have proven time and again no one GUILD can compete against you. How is that gonna change when your recipe doesn't change.
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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby SpeedySurfer » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:30

Rajam wrote:I will however say that I believe that this should be put on ALL servers not just the new ones. I realize that this is not part of your concept so don't let it distract from it but if what your proposing is "Fair" then why not put in on the old servers to balance them?

If you put this in place on older servers, it reinforces the dominant guilds position.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Sandcastle Smasher » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:37

Erls wrote:The reason I do not suggest it for past servers is, in large part, due to 2 reasons:

1- TR distance. Where this idea to be adapted, TRs distances would be a huge pain to sort out.
2- JG networks. Guilds have their JG networks designed and built for the server as it exists. Were the server to change, said JG networks could become obsolete and render years of work worthless.

SpeedySurfer wrote:
Rajam wrote:I will however say that I believe that this should be put on ALL servers not just the new ones. I realize that this is not part of your concept so don't let it distract from it but if what your proposing is "Fair" then why not put in on the old servers to balance them?

If you put this in place on older servers, it reinforces the dominant guilds position.

^That

One of the few advantages of being in the 50s on older servers are
  • back to wall
  • joint best trades of the server
Putting these changes into effect would negate both of those advantages for the higher galaxy guilds, without the advantages the changes provide in a fresh server.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Rajam » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:51

1.Rework your trades no one said your entitled to them forever.
2.High jumpgates are always valuable, position is not the reason you build them(Except in single system regions).

Nothing given is reason not to.

EDIT: I don't care about best trades or back to a wall. If your all about fair you should be all in for making it retroactive.

On a side not I'm not about "Fair" in anything. Life isn't fair. In my experience the person crying for fairness usually wants something for free most likely because they did something that didn't work out. They are also the one saying "I don't mean to hit X with the bus, but.........".:)

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Sandcastle Smasher » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 04:56

Rajam wrote:1.Rework your trades no one said your entitled to them forever.
2.High jumpgates are always valuable, position is not the reason you build them(Except in single system regions).

Nothing given is reason not to.


Well the norm on servers Fenix->Nova has been to have very high jgs in your X0 and X9 galaxies, as they are the galaxies you will usually launch on OPs from.

In my experience most 00s guilds fortify 00-03, pact/sub guild 04-08 and have 09 as an outpost.
You dont need super great gates in 00-03, just okay ones. With the change it would give huge mobility issues to the lower 00s based and the higher 50s (or whatever is the top galaxy set) guilds.

And the trade argument would be okay if not for how random the change would be. If you are an 00 guy who has chosen to trade with mostly 59 players and your guild mate also in 00 decided to trade with 19 players. Your trades suddenly get dropped to 3.6k distance and your mates are still at 5.6k, thats not really fair is it?

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Rajam » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 05:05

My trades are routinely being remade. As my econ increases I drop the lower ones, as war's go I lose them to pillage, as time goes by people disband or quit or get their account deleted(Tessa:)) They are always being remade, that isn't a bad thing.

I'm in X15-X19 Being in the lowers doesn't matter to me that much.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Sandcastle Smasher » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 05:15

Rajam wrote:My trades are routinely being remade. As my econ increases I drop the lower ones, as war's go I lose them to pillage, as time goes by people disband or quit or get their account deleted(Tessa:)) They are always being remade, that isn't a bad thing.

I'm in X15-X19 Being in the lowers doesn't matter to me that much.


I understand what you mean, but 2 things;

1) you are a teens player, the change to trades would benifit you massively as the upper teens are the second worst trade zone currently in the game (upper 00s and lower 50s being the worst) :P

2) There is a difference between the slow migration of trades, and having to replace all of your routes;
If you have 21 bases each at lvl25 sp that is 126 trades.
If you are a player who has a preferred guild to trade with (most people do) and unlucky enough to have to replace all of your trades with to other galaxies. That is ~630K you have to spend fixing your trades (giving a trade value of 5k).
Now if you are an X0 or X9 player and very elitist with your trades, that gives you a trade fixing value of up to 705600.
Its not a life threatening amount to lose but its a hassle for no valid reason.

Players of a particular playstyle are picked out and basically fined ~500k credits just for making their accounts as good as they can imaginably make possible.


Right now your reasoning why this should be applied to the older servers is "because your idea is so "fair"", well without positives to your reasoning there is no point suggesting something or making comments such as you have.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Ferdoc » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 06:30

First off glad to see this got here. Secondly I don't deserve any real credit. I just merely asked a question that was present and I felt needed attention.

Finally - New servers only. The changes really just gives dominant guilds MORE power than they did before. Killing off the older servers hardly seems like something worthwhile.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Rajam » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 06:38

Sandcastle Smasher wrote:Right now your reasoning why this should be applied to the older servers is "because your idea is so "fair"", well without positives to your reasoning there is no point suggesting something or making comments such as you have.


I'm not sure how upper teens are bad for trades.

5600 Distance from any XX9 galaxy.
5400 Distance from any XX8 galaxy.
5200 Distance from any XX7 galaxy
etc.

Having circular galaxies would actually hurt me as far as trades go.

No one would have to redo all their trades, but just because some people would WANT to redo trades is no reason NOT to implement something.

The "fair" comment was to anyone claiming that the idea is fair for new servers but not old, that doesn't jive. Don't use fair in one instance and not in others, that discredits everything you say.

The positive you require in this idea is the fact that getting to the upper and lower portions of the galaxy will be much easier for everyone. Some will say that isn't fair but if Wizard suddenly doubled the speed of every ship in the game or doubled the jumpgate levels of every jumpgate you wouldn't see anyone complain about being able to get to the lowers faster. Faster travel is what everyone desires, this makes the current "farthest reaches" of the game closer for everyone.

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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Sandcastle Smasher » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 10:20

Rajam wrote:I'm not sure how upper teens are bad for trades.

5600 Distance from any XX9 galaxy.
5400 Distance from any XX8 galaxy.
5200 Distance from any XX7 galaxy
etc.

Yes, but currently 19 only gets 5.6k distance trades with 00
29 gets them with 00 and 10
39 gets them with 00, 10 and 20
49 gets them with 00, 10, 20 and 30
59 gets them with 00, 10, 20, 30 and 40

So having a potential of 4 times as many trade partners (in the new servers) does not make a galaxy better for trading?
Using on of the new maps would give each X0 and X9 galaxies 3 galaxy sets to have "perfect" trades with making it 100% balanced.

Having circular galaxies would actually hurt me as far as trades go.

As I just explained, No it wouldnt, honestly it would probably benefit the teens the most in the older servers.

No one would have to redo all their trades, but just because some people would WANT to redo trades is no reason NOT to implement something.

No one in their right mind would not redo their trades if this came into effect and they got screwed.
using the 126LD trade argument again:
At perfect distance and lets say both bases are 250econ:
Trade value is = ~51econ
At 3.8k distance and again same value econ:
Trade value is = ~46econ
At 126 trades like that, they come respectively to 6426 and 5796 a difference of nearly 600 econ.
To most players worth their salt, adding or losing 630econ from their account is nothing to be scoffed at and thus they will fix the trades.
So if they do fix their trades, it will cost them 700k
If they dont fix their trades, it will cost them 630credits per hour, 15120credits per day, 105840credits per week, 456300credits per month and 5518800credits per year.
Taken from them when they are given no extra bonus and not taken from everyone, just people who were trading with the "wrong" galaxy
Numbers dont lie

The "fair" comment was to anyone claiming that the idea is fair for new servers but not old, that doesn't jive. Don't use fair in one instance and not in others, that discredits everything you say.

Yes you can use "fair" in different situations.
If we are getting ready for a friends birthday and we are each throwing in 5quid to get him a gift, is it fair to ask the guy who just lost his job, his apartment and was robbed on the way to meeting you to give you 5pound? Of course you would make an exception for him. In the same way if another friend had just won the lottery and didnt want to give 5pound for the gift be cool with you?
Fairness is not a constant, it changes based on situation.

In this situation the change would adversely effect the older servers providing no bonus' and the new servers get a more balanced server start.
How is that not fair?

The positive you require in this idea is the fact that getting to the upper and lower portions of the galaxy will be much easier for everyone. Some will say that isn't fair but if Wizard suddenly doubled the speed of every ship in the game or doubled the jumpgate levels of every jumpgate you wouldn't see anyone complain about being able to get to the lowers faster. Faster travel is what everyone desires, this makes the current "farthest reaches" of the game closer for everyone.

What I meant to say is you are not providing any positives to your views, only attempting to point out the negatives in others.
Why would it be better to keep the old system of galaxy spawning?
In the cases of the older servers and the newer servers respectively.
What do you see as the negatives off adding this new system of galaxy spawning?
In the cases of the older servers and the newer servers respectively.
What do you see as the positives of adding the system to both the new and old servers?
etc, etc.

While i admit many FR posters are flawed as they find it easier to see the positives of their arguments and the negatives of others (we are only human after all..... well.... not sure about ferdoc).

Again back to the trade point. That is unfair for the older servers as it changes the trade value for different players randomly, there is no set value.
If Wizard doubled the speed of all units tomorrow, he would double the speed of everyone's units so it would be fair and balanced.
This change is not about making flights faster to some galaxies, it is about making each galaxy set even. The proposed change does that. Of course with the only flaw in that being the players mentality but that Wizard can never change unless.......
Image
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Re: Circular Serverserse, Final concept discussion

Postby Rajam » Sun 03 Mar, 2013 16:54

Not trying to derail this discussion so I'll leave it to the pros:).

I hope you can get this implemented.

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