Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

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Khamul Nazgul
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Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Khamul Nazgul » Mon 22 Apr, 2013 16:19

Mid Flight Disband of Fleet.
Been asked to re-make the thread for anyone wondering.
-------------------------------------------------------

Basic idea, quite simple, Disable the Disband Button for fleets in flight.

Original Thread: http://forum.astroempires.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=111433

Original posts explaining my view.

Some say disbanding your fleet mid flight is a valid tactic.

But look at it from a different view, Player A spends 2 days planning to re-call trap an enemy, he's nearly landed and he simply disbands.
How many times has this happened to you? How annoying is it? we all have real lives and the time we spend on this game for most is limited.

You've spent all that time for nothing.

What is the point of even trying to fight active players? When they do actually get out-played they just disband.
The other player gets nothing when he put all that work in, they put the strategy in place to make such a re-call possible.

It's going to start becoming, "What is the point of launching to said Galaxy to catch a fleet when they'll just disband when they realize they've been caught."

This disbandment of fleet mid air encourages in-activity, since there is no point of even attempting to catch a fleet in a re-call.


---------------------------------------------
So my suggestion,

When your fleets Warp drive is in use (Your fleets being moved) you are un-able to disband.
Warp Drive uses all available power in your ships and as such a self destruct sequence can not be engaged.

---------------------------------------------

It encourages more activity (Which is needed) on catching players in re-call traps, they've been outplayed and as such the opposing side should be rewarded for being able to pull it off.
I see those who disband mid flight as sore losers.

I myself if I am re-call trapped, I never disband, because it's a game, why be a sore loser about it, I'd rather land, do as much damage OR even try get a portion of my fleet out.

Which is more realistic in my opinion for Space Travel in the first place.

Currently the only way to catch a player and destroy them is if they are offline, how...fun, let's just shoot in-actives.
Eventually if it somethings not done about mid flight disbandment, people are going to just get bored and quit.

I want the excitement back into the game, running around galaxies catching players in re-call traps and them having to deal with the consequences of their own mistakes!

For all of those who see this as a valid tactic, please look at it from a different view, look at the impact it's having on the game, it's players and the activity of such players.


Most attempts on getting fleets in a re-call trap end up with the other fleet being disbanded.

It takes the fun and excitement out of the game and yes it is Game killing and it is Promoting inactivity.
Who in the hell wants to spend days preparing a re-call trap for to just end in the enemy disbanding.

Profit and growth is what drives this game.
Everybody wants to make bucks.

You're saying those who prescribe to the view of "Why bother he'll disband" is what is harming the game, How?

And really, Why even bother?
So what one less fleet to take of with no losses.

Big achievement, waste of time for such a little result.
You've gained nothing really.

One less fleet that would likely just disband at any sign of trouble, people need to grow some and be willing to lose their fleet, it's all fun, it's a game after-all.


Let's all just keep going the way we're going, catching fleets in re-call traps for them to disband.
Will end up with no hits being made anymore other than offline players, inactives and bots.

Massive lack of Online players vs Online players, as when one knows they've been trapped they disband.

Waste of time and simply just makes myself want to sit and do nothing but sim.


Disbanding your fleet mid flight is silly.

Denial of Debris you all say.
Both parties lose out, Waste of time.
Time is part of this game, it's very limited for many these days.

Players are going to start moving on to other games that actually gives rewards for all the time and hard work you put into being more strategically Superior.

If you get caught in a re-call trap, that's your own fault and that is part of the game, you shouldn't be able to deny debris to the enemy by disbanding your fleet mid flight as this game is about growth, not stagnation.
Neither side gains anything from disbanding mid flight.

Just one less fleet, whoopie, some scared pup disbanded his fleet.
What about the next person, disband.
Next person disband.

No growth and no fun.

(Captain, enemy fleet is waiting for us at the other end, what shall we do? Let's just commit suicide to deny them a battle!!! yeahhhh!!)


I know for a fact I would move off the blob to catch fleets more often if the feature was disabled.
Moving around takes ages and when there's a 50% chance someones going to disband if I catch them why even bloody bother.

Let's all just fight in-actives or people offline for the entire life span of the game.

What happened to fighting online players, moving around trying to out smart each-other, when one gets caught for his mistake they disband.
WASTE OF TIME.

Those who disband, sore losers.
If someone caught me in a re-call trap, I'd congratulate my enemy and do what I can to either, do as much damage or try get as-much fleet out as possible.


- Why not take away the 5 second wait to move your fleet and remove Mid flight Disbandment.

More balanced and a fair chance for the player to get his fleet out and into warp to a new flight path.


Mid flight disbandment is simply a reward system for peoples mistakes, stupid.
This game really has lost it's excitement.


Disbanding fleet mid flight after all the time spent organizing it = Frustration = More Frustration when it happens again = Why bother trying to catch the fleet = let's just blob and not move around trying be a better strategist than others.

We'll just shoot inactives or people offline and unaware, such a challenge.

If Mid flight disbandment was disabled, we'd see more moving around and more shooting.
Which is what we want right? (Specially on Alpha)


- Remove being able to disband when your fleet is in flight.
- Remove the 5 second time you have to wait when you land till you can move your fleet.

Still makes it 50/50 chance, he could be shot upon landing or he could launch a his fleet if not a portion of it into Warp.


Pretty much same as it now, except it's not in 1 players hands.
Goes by who is over-all better.


I honestly do believe it will bring some life back into the game for such a minor adjustment.
More excitement.


It's a tactic you say.

The tactic "Re-call Trapping" is no longer a tactic anymore because of this, your reply will be but you still recall trapped him and he disbanded, one less fleet.
This game is about Growth, not stagnation.

When the player sees that he has been caught out, out IQ'd he decides to disband, Sore loser imo.

You are supposed to be rewarded for putting activity and being more strategical than others in this game, can't you all remember the way it used to be?
Fighting online players running around trying to out flank each-other and if a player got trapped, he congratulated his opponent and took it as a lesson.


Disbanding mid flight is basically just a big "beep" you to those who put all the time and effort into making it happens.
Bad sportsmanship.

If they really want to deny debris to the enemy, don't be a stupid idiot and get re-call trapped in the place.


This game is driven by Credits, this game is a long game, one who has played for 6 years now, it's gotten to the point of simply shooting in-actives, offline players and AI is no longer as fun.

The game needs to up the anti.
Put more risk.
Those who make strategical errors get hurt for it.

Reward those who put activity into this game, instead of just making all that activity turn to fustration most of the time.
It's like one of those things in a game where something is so over-powered it wrecks a certain aspect of the game and eventually fustrates you so much you begin to think what's the point of playing this game.

We've lost the aspect of fighting online players.
Far to many have gotten used to just shooting in-actives, taking AI out or shooting players who are offline for hardly any challenge what so ever.

Those who put activity into the game and actually are looking for a real fight, a forced fight might you say, but ends with the enemy disbanding his entire fleet into a blink of an eye into nothing because hey who cares, I'll be-able to rebuild 50 Mil fleet really fast, the guild will just shoot inactives and let me collect some debris because I am active and they want to keep me, instead of being hard on their members for taking the easy way out, that's not fun, how boring are you.

Come on Wizard, up the Anti, disable the feature mid flight and force people to fight.
This is a scissor paper rock game after all, you don't see paper saying to scissors no I won't fight right now because he knows he's lost ;)


1. They do have a option if they don't wish to fight, try run, move their fleet before the others get the chance to attack.
2. If you plan your movements that bad, you deserve to get re-call trapped and shot.
3. So you are basically saying players have been only moving around simply because if they do get caught they have the disband fleet option and now they suddenly won't because they can no longer disband mid flght, what a joke of a statement.

4. Go make a thread about banking and I'll most likely support it, for now stay on topic.

Activity and Credits drives this game.
Being a better Strategist is part of the game.
Reward both by those who make strategical errors, they then pay for it, not giving them an option to deny in-game reward to those who have put time and effort into making such an error happen.


You are basically agreeing with the argument that people won't move their fleets because there is no longer a disband button?

People need to take responsibility for their actions, those who put activity into the game should be rewarded, moving around being active shooting stuff is what we want in this game.

NOT people who simply won't move anymore and stay on a blob to be safe.
WHY are they being favoured?

The active willing ones wanting to move around catching fleets in Re-call traps and risking their own fleet at the same time SHOULD be the ones the Devs should be considering further.

If people want to sit on a blob because they don't have a disband button, fine, rot and sim and be inactive then or delete your account then you girls.

I am sick and tired of trolololos or whatever pretending to play the game, moving fleets around and because they are STUPID and get re-call trapped and trololololol Disband my fleet to piss the other person off who put all that effective thinking and activity.

Let them rot on a blob, it is their choice not taking a risk and having FUN.
This is a GAME, one that is currently frustrating.

Look at the bigger picture.


?????? 4 Apr 2013, 14:27:45
You can disband and get the credits, what you need to do is have the disband page opened select all fleet and tick the box ready to disband, 1 sec after landing disband and you will get credits back. It works we have been using this tactic on another server where we have a lot of fleet recall trapped to great effect.

New information I received.


Exactly.

A person shouldn't be able to deny the enemy a fight when they have made a tactical error.


I will explain this again in a different way, might help a-few understand the bigger picture on the whole thing,
The fact that this is a game, not real life which should mean shooting and losing is part of the game.

In the case of fleet disbandment, It works like this.

- One players Statistics lower and the others stagnate (Stay the same)

As this is a game, when you are a better strategist it should always go.

- One players statistics lower, one heightens. (He gains)


Who in their right mind would want to continue playing this game when activity and better thinking is punished by letting players disband their fleet mid flight.
It gives all the power to those who are making mistakes!

This is a Paper, Scissors, Rock Game, you don't see Paper saying, "No thanks I don't want to fight this battle this time against you Scissors cause I know I'll lose and I don't want to give you the victory, I'd rather just kill myself."


This is a game.
As such "Gaining resources" is part of it.

Why give a feature to players to cover up their mistakes.
Activity and better strategies are being punished.

People want growth, not stagnation.


Thank you for your time,
KN.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby SpeedySurfer » Mon 22 Apr, 2013 18:04

Sorry, but what was the point in a new thread?

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Ferdoc » Mon 22 Apr, 2013 18:08

Same issues still remain from last thread. This is a strategy game, resource denial is apart of strategy games. If you wish to remove it because of the cited means of effort, bank as well must be removed (similar concept with same aspect, denying credits) as well as blobs moving away from an encounter (denying combat).

All in all this is going to just be a rehash of the prior thread.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Bruskie » Mon 22 Apr, 2013 18:29

So while all 'supporting' posts have been drawn out of the OP (why was there a second thread made?) none of the counter posts have been carried over.

Nothing has changed in the overall views from thread #1 to thread #2.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Pasternak » Mon 22 Apr, 2013 19:48

I told him to make this new topic... Now that's it's in the workshop.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Ferdoc » Mon 22 Apr, 2013 19:55

Ok, how does removing all the posts pointing out the significant logical issues within the concept suddenly make this idea worth moving to the workshop?

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby SpeedySurfer » Tue 23 Apr, 2013 10:17

Considering no agreement was ever reached on the idea, I don't feel it belongs in the workshop.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Kakarot » Tue 23 Apr, 2013 12:41

I wonder if this meets the politician fallacy. It looks like it needs to appear that the workshop is being used so a random idea that hasn't had any agreement on is moved there.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Khamul Nazgul » Tue 23 Apr, 2013 14:34

SpeedySurfer wrote:Considering no agreement was ever reached on the idea, I don't feel it belongs in the workshop.


If it worked that way, nothing would ever come to FR.
You can't make everybody happy, always someone who would be against an idea.

Plus you have no agreement amongst yourselves, those who disagreed.
I counter argued everything you guys said and explained in several different ways to help you understand.


If you want to disband your fleet, you can, just not Mid Flight.
Those who make Strategical errors will be punished for it, those who put activity into out smarting and moving into position to make that strategical error happen for his opponent should be rewarded as such, because this is a game, denying a fight in a game is stupid.

We want player vs player back and being rewarded.
We want re-call traps back and being rewarded.
We want better strategical movements and being rewarded.
We want speed actually being a strong part of the game again and being rewarded for it.
We want activity to be rewarded.

All Disband, Disband, Disband.

Why?
Because it's the easy way out, it denies the enemy all the hard work they put in for nothing.

They have one less fleet to worry about yay, we all play the game to see people disband fleets so there are less fleets.

Except..you know in a space game I'd actually like to do the shooting.


You'll get the point soon enough, I hope so anyway.

PS. Just because the idea has been moved here, it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be added.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Ferdoc » Tue 23 Apr, 2013 17:32

Khamul Nazgul wrote:
SpeedySurfer wrote:Considering no agreement was ever reached on the idea, I don't feel it belongs in the workshop.


If it worked that way, nothing would ever come to FR.
You can't make everybody happy, always someone who would be against an idea.


Pretty much this for the most part. However the ideas that do get moved here are moved because of merit of the concept. I do believe without an except, prior to this idea, none of the ideas violated the founding concept of AE (strategy game). This idea does just that merely because of flawed logic. Again movement and banking would also necessarily go by the wayside due to the exact same issue and logic applied directly to them results in similar (if not identical) changes.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Khamul Nazgul » Wed 24 Apr, 2013 02:25

Ferdoc wrote:
Khamul Nazgul wrote:
SpeedySurfer wrote:Considering no agreement was ever reached on the idea, I don't feel it belongs in the workshop.


If it worked that way, nothing would ever come to FR.
You can't make everybody happy, always someone who would be against an idea.


Pretty much this for the most part. However the ideas that do get moved here are moved because of merit of the concept. I do believe without an except, prior to this idea, none of the ideas violated the founding concept of AE (strategy game). This idea does just that merely because of flawed logic. Again movement and banking would also necessarily go by the wayside due to the exact same issue and logic applied directly to them results in similar (if not identical) changes.


Your argument, it's a valid tactic.

What about when it completely replaces another tactic?
What about when said "Tactic" simply punishes Activity and being a better strategist.

This is a game, Activity and being a better strategist should not be punished in a game about Space Boats.
Shooting each other should be encouraged.
When you are "Trapped" there should not be a way out of it, it's a game.

I also do not think The Disband Feature when originally designed was meant for such excess of use, AE did not plan for Massive Prod Caps, players just disband, then their guild shoots stuff which let's them rebuild fast.

- Originally I think it was to disband any unnecessary fleet you no longer need.


Disbanding Mid Fleet is only hurting the game.
You still can disband on the ground once you are landed if you want ;)

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby kris » Wed 24 Apr, 2013 14:24

No agreement was made on Ferdocs splash damage thread,

in fact every poster in there was against it. So dont assume that just because some people disagree that this isnt the place for this idea.

As for this idea in itself its a great idea. Fleets shouldn't magically disappear in the middle of space. If they are disbanded there should be some form of debris.

Also to add to this they shouldn't magically disappear once they land on a players base with an occupying fleet and be turned into credits. The occupying fleet should be able to shoot it down.

Maybe when disbanding fleet thats landed on a base it should take some time to do. Not instantly. For example x amount per hour could be disbanded based on prod cap.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Soundwave » Wed 24 Apr, 2013 19:40

Totaly against this. Same *beep* like the Fleets recys on / off issue , that tries trough a back door to implement something that will make blobs / strong players / guilds even stronger. Its just a lie thats trying to be pushed. It has nothing to do with inactivity of players. It will not give nothing new to the game , it will just make me thinking less about global comunity of AE , developers and players in general. If you ppl cant play this game without looking for extra profit in EVERYTHING then you go kill yourself. Also This *beep* cant help anybody or anything , it will stop ppl from moving around it will make ppl disband before start to move to get 25% or 50% of lost fleets and i just spit on ppl who support this idea.
:grumpy:

Quiting this *beep* game.

*beep* you all.
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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Ferdoc » Wed 24 Apr, 2013 21:52

Khamul Nazgul wrote:Your argument, it's a valid tactic.

What about when it completely replaces another tactic?
What about when said "Tactic" simply punishes Activity and being a better strategist.


Hold up, replaces? I think you mean counters. Just kind of how HCs counter FTs. I also find issue with your better strategist portion as well punishes activity. The person caught in the recall trap could be a better strategist and far more active than the person catching them, however due to situations beyond their control they got caught in a situation where this is merely an option for them.

Khamul Nazgul wrote:This is a game, Activity and being a better strategist should not be punished in a game about Space Boats.
Shooting each other should be encouraged.


Deal with blobbing first then come back to this concept. That is a far larger instigator in simming and lack of combat than this so called issue.

Khamul Nazgul wrote:When you are "Trapped" there should not be a way out of it, it's a game.


We're back to the whole blob crash argument I made last thread with this.

Khamul Nazgul wrote:I also do not think The Disband Feature when originally designed was meant for such excess of use, AE did not plan for Massive Prod Caps, players just disband, then their guild shoots stuff which let's them rebuild fast.


The same thing can be said of fleet. In conversations far in the past with Wizard regarding blobbing and stagnation he did not believe or intend fleet to be amassed to such levels, as he believe the profit available in combat would be too tempting of a target for players. Yet we see massive blobs floating and gaining lots of idle time. Should we remove the ability to produce excess amounts of fleet then? that is exactly what the argument for this concept boils down to. It wasn't intended as such it should be removed. Excessive fleet numbers wasn't, so why not just prevent any additional production beyond an arbitrary number?

Khamul Nazgul wrote:- Originally I think it was to disband any unnecessary fleet you no longer need.


If a fleet is trapped a player can state that it is no longer necessary, as such it fills that criteria.


Khamul Nazgul wrote:Disbanding Mid Fleet is only hurting the game.
You still can disband on the ground once you are landed if you want ;)


Blobbing is only hurting the game, by your own admission high prod caps is doing the same, and by correlation high fleet as well. Why not deal with those far more significant issues first and then come back and revisit? Aside from this being an 'easy' target.

With that said, lets work with your assumption here that you can disband when you land before combat, what changes? The player who disbanded got credits when prior they got not and the trapper got nothing again.

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Re: Mid Flight Disband of Fleet 2.0

Postby Kakarot » Thu 25 Apr, 2013 00:48

kris wrote:No agreement was made on Ferdocs splash damage thread,

in fact every poster in there was against it. So dont assume that just because some people disagree that this isnt the place for this idea.


I thought the conclusion was that it had potential. The discussion just stalled. The only people who were against it completely were you, Helion, Lyra and Soundwave. Sandalphon and Rajam were curious at the math and asked about it. Me, Ribbentrop and KO were pretty much neutral to the topic at hand. Wlerin had some concerns with two elements, random element and delay effect. Finally, Ferdoc and Pylinaer engaged in a discussion over the math and Pylinaer was happy with it but was going to test it again but I assume real life situations got better of him. Thus leading to the stalling over the idea.

So not every poster in there was against it. So can we please bypass the inevitable argument that you get in and say that he doesn't play the game and focus on the topic it at hand? Which is the proposed removal of the mid-flight disband.

kris wrote:Fleets shouldn't magically disappear in the middle of space. If they are disbanded there should be some form of debris.


Why should there be a form of debris? No debris is created if you disband on your base or another astro so why should it be different if you disband in mid-flight?

If debris was generated in mid-flight then it would be coming at the fleet at various speeds and to counter the profit for nothing argument, maybe some damage should occur to the player at the location (perhaps based on the disbanding player's speed and can be reduced via armor levels) as a result of the scuttling and you can then collect the debris.

kris wrote:Also to add to this they shouldn't magically disappear once they land on a players base with an occupying fleet and be turned into credits. The occupying fleet should be able to shoot it down.


Wait what? The occupying fleet has the chance to shoot it down if the occupier is online and catches it within the lag period of landing. Can the occupied player move his fleet that he has just created? Or is that not allowed because it would get away.

kris wrote:Maybe when disbanding fleet that's landed on a base it should take some time to do. Not instantly. For example x amount per hour could be disbanded based on prod cap.


That basically removes disbanding completely from the game. But that concern is for another topic for another time. You can propose an idea for that with an appropriate formula which then can be scrutinised to ensure that it is workable.

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