Variable Production Speed

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Variable Production Speed

Postby SICON » Wed 13 May, 2015 16:53

What if there were more variety in production speed aside from just regular speed and double speed? You could have a slider button when you produce units that has values from anywhere between 10% - 1000%, or a box where someone can manually type in their production speed percentage. Both the speed and the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage.

You could get really cheap units if you are willing to wait a long time for them, or you can pay 10 times the cost of the unit if you need something in a jiffy.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Ferdoc » Wed 13 May, 2015 19:52

This is why people who don't run numbers should never post functions and/or formulas. Lets use what you've stated;

Tsedeqiah wrote:Both the speed and the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage..


One basic assumption, a simple base of only 200 production.

Now the baseline

Set a BS to 100%
BS = 2000 cr.
Time = 10 hours (2000/200)

Set a BS to 10%
As per your comments we multiply the numbers by the percentage and assume the system doesn't calculate a new time that THEN gets multiplied
2000*.1 = 200
10*.1 = 1

Set a BS to 200%
As per your comments we multiply the numbers by the percentage and assume the system doesn't calculate a new time that THEN gets multiplied
2000*2=4000
10*2=20

High percentage increases cost and time, lower percentage decreases the cost and time. Please don't post trash like this again.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby SICON » Wed 13 May, 2015 20:17

Ferdoc wrote:This is why people who don't run numbers should never post functions and/or formulas. Lets use what you've stated;

Tsedeqiah wrote:Both the speed and the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage..


One basic assumption, a simple base of only 200 production.

Now the baseline

Set a BS to 100%
BS = 2000 cr.
Time = 10 hours (2000/200)

Set a BS to 10%
As per your comments we multiply the numbers by the percentage and assume the system doesn't calculate a new time that THEN gets multiplied
2000*.1 = 200
10*.1 = 1

Set a BS to 200%
As per your comments we multiply the numbers by the percentage and assume the system doesn't calculate a new time that THEN gets multiplied
2000*2=4000
10*2=20

High percentage increases cost and time, lower percentage decreases the cost and time. Please don't post trash like this again.


The way the game is set up right now, if I pay double speed at 4000 credits for a battleship, it will be done in 5 hours. You are in essence just paying for the production rate to be doubled from 200 per hour to 400 per hour. The 400 is applied toward the regular BS cost of 2000 credits, even though I had to pay 4000 for it.

If I pay 20,000 credits for 1000% speed, my production rate becomes 2000 credits per hour, which is applied toward the regular BS cost of 2000, not the 20,000 I had to pay for it, resulting in a one hour production time.

If I pay 200 credits for a 10% speed, my production rate becomes 20 credits per hour, which is applied toward the regular BS cost of 2000, not the 200 I had to pay for it, resulting in a 100 hour production time.

It's not a bad idea, you erred in your thinking.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Ferdoc » Thu 14 May, 2015 07:15

Well that's one thing you've gotten correct. The game does allow you to pay more for something in order to reduce its production time. However I didn't err in my thinking. Your comment at the center of this;

Tsedeqiah wrote: Both the speed and the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage.


Opperates differently from the current game. Both the speed and cost are multiplied by the percentage. Take out a piece of paper and do what I posted above. It is EXACTLY as you state your idea works. Both results are multiplied by some number. Not taking a HIGHER artificial cost to create an artificial LOWER production time. Which would hold true for the opposite as well. Simply put the game currently has an inverse relationship. When you double the cost you reduce time by the inverse; the inverse of 2 being 1/2.

We are considering your idea for a replacement of the current mechanic. It has both cost and production speed multiplied by the percentage. Meaning both will be raised or both will be lowered. There is no inverse relationship. Everything is directly correlative. As A goes up, B goes up. If A goes down, B goes down. You have both of them being controlled by the SAME number. 10% is 10% to both. Remember, BOTH of them are multiplied by THE percentage. Not different. not inverse numbers. SAME.

Step back, examine your idea. Its flawed from the get go. If you can't understand the simple issue with it, its not my fault. Blame whomever you wish. Personally I'm blaming you.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby SICON » Thu 14 May, 2015 17:50

Ferdoc wrote:When you double the cost you reduce time by the inverse; the inverse of 2 being 1/2.


- You double the cost and double the speed, which reduces the overall time to 1/2 of what it once was. (inverse of 2 is 1/2)
- You quadruple the cost and quadruple the speed, which reduces the overall time to 1/4 of what it once was. (inverse of 4 is 1/4)
- You multiply the cost by 10 and you multiply the speed by 10, which reduces the overall time to 1/10 of what it once was. (inverse of 10 is 1/10)
- You cut the cost in half and cut the speed in half, which increases the overall time to twice of what it once was. (inverse of 1/2 is 2)
- You cut the cost to 10% and cut the speed to 10%, which increases the overall time to ten times what it once was. (inverse of 1/10 is 10)

I fail to see why this is so hard for you to understand. It would appear you do not grasp the semantics of what I'm talking about.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Ferdoc » Thu 14 May, 2015 18:13

I understood what you said perfectly. You have everything being tied to the SAME, not inverse.
Tsedeqiah wrote: Both the speed and the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage.


Do you see your own words now? Or are you going to continue the farce? Your fundamental mechanic states your most recent comment of inverse proportions is not how you want to do it.

It isn't semantics if the word is completely wrong. If I say I want to go the harbor, but instead I go to the financial district. Its wrong. Just like you are in claiming your original post which, again, says;

Tsedeqiah wrote: Both the speed and the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage.


Is the same as inverse. Lets try the simple test again. Read what I have quote and type out the answer;

Number 1 - 50
Number 2 - 100
Percentage - 150%

I can't wait for you to try and ignore your own words... again.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Wlerin » Thu 14 May, 2015 23:51

Ferdoc. Time is not speed. Speed is not time. Tsedeqiah is proposing multiplying the speed, that is, the rate, by the same factor as the cost. Your numbers are in fact the exact opposite of his proposal.

Speed is the rate at which a thing happens, and is basically expressed as follows:

v (speed) = c (cost) / T (time)

Or, vT = c

as such, speed and Time are inversely related: if you increase the speed, you reduce the time taken for the same cost or distance. This is relatively simple math.


Since you've persisted in this error for three posts now, let me break it down for you.

Ferdoc wrote:Set a BS to 100%
BS = 2000 cr.
Time = 10 hours (2000/200)

That 200 I have highlighted is the "speed" or rate. That is what should be multiplied by the same factor as the cost. Since this number is in the denominator, increasing it will reduce the final fraction, that is, the total time. The end result is exactly equivalent (in fact literally the same as) multiplying the time by the reciprocal (or "inverse") of the cost factor.


Ferdoc wrote:Set a BS to 10%
As per your comments we multiply the numbers by the percentage and assume the system doesn't calculate a new time that THEN gets multiplied
2000*.1 = 200
10*.1 = 1

This is nonsense. The second calculation is not "10*0.1", it is 2000/(200*0.1), or (2000/200)*10, that is, 100 hours.

Ferdoc wrote:Set a BS to 200%
As per your comments we multiply the numbers by the percentage and assume the system doesn't calculate a new time that THEN gets multiplied
2000*2=4000
10*2=20

Again nonsense. The correct time is 2000/(200*2), or 5 hours.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Ferdoc » Fri 15 May, 2015 19:36

seeing a time = (cost/production) you are saying speed = cost / (cost/production)? So speed = production. so much for a useful manner of information. Should we multiply production by the percentage seeing as per your argument speed is production?

speed is an external mechanic in the game, it is derived from internal pieces of information. I used what we have in game that is similar enough to 'speed' as we would term it. The rate of production it takes to finish a single queue. And the other mechanic he stated, COST of the unit.

production in game is simply cost/production. If we take him at his word and MULTIPLY the cost of the unit by the same percentage that it is set (remember? no ok I'll quote it... again.)

the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage


Then we end up with every unit being 10% of its cost. Back to the BS calculation its 2000*.1/200 or 200/200. from 10 hours to 1 hour.
The 'speed' of production is increased 10 fold. Or the time it takes to produce a single unit is reduce by 90%. Speed is never in the base mechanics of the game. Its always derived and the OP wishes to alter the base mechanics resulting in a change to the refined numbers that violates his own comment on effect of the idea.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Wlerin » Sat 16 May, 2015 05:04

Ferdoc wrote:seeing a time = (cost/production) you are saying speed = cost / (cost/production)? So speed = production. so much for a useful manner of information. Should we multiply production by the percentage seeing as per your argument speed is production?

Yes. Production capacity is the rate at which ships are produced, that is, the speed.

v = cred/h = production

Congrats, you've managed to catch up. Savour this moment, as it won't last long.


speed is an external mechanic in the game, it is derived from internal pieces of information. I used what we have in game that is similar enough to 'speed' as we would term it. The rate of production it takes to finish a single queue. And the other mechanic he stated, COST of the unit.

No, that's not what speed is. Don't be daft. If you take 20 minutes to drive to the supermarket your speed wasn't 20 minutes. It was (distance to the supermarket)/(20 minutes). Rate of production == speed.

production in game is simply cost/production.

See, now you're using the same word to mean two different things in one sentence. Don't do that. The time a single production order takes to complete is "simply" cost/rate of production, that is, cost/speed.


Ferdoc wrote:If we take him at his word and MULTIPLY the cost of the unit by the same percentage that it is set (remember? no ok I'll quote it... again.)
the cost of the unit would be multiplied by the percentage

Which is idiotic. Yes, he failed to specify that the original cost would be used, but you're playing the fool (as usual) if you think that wasn't assumed, and should have been assumed.

Ferdoc wrote:The 'speed' of production is increased 10 fold. Or the time it takes to produce a single unit is reduce by 90%.

Generally, it is wise to have some basic understanding of a subject before venturing an opinion on it. The subject in this case being maths.

Ferdoc wrote:Then we end up with every unit being 10% of its cost. Back to the BS calculation its 2000*.1/200 or 200/200. from 10 hours to 1 hour.

No. No no no.

Using your asinine reasoning, the formula would be : (cost * factor / (production * factor) )

or in the case of battleships: (2000*.1/(200*.1))

The factors cancel. It'd still take 10 hours (it would always take 10 hours), the player just randomly decides whether he wants to pay more or less. This is moronic. Of course the base cost would be used, as it is in many other places in the game.

Ferdoc wrote:Speed is never in the base mechanics of the game. Its always derived and the OP wishes to alter the base mechanics resulting in a change to the refined numbers that violates his own comment on effect of the idea.

I take it you haven't moved your fleet any time in the recent past. Ships have a speed (literally so called), it's the distance travelled per unit of time (in this case an hour), i.e. distance/time. The equivalent "speed" for production is that very same production rate discussed above, which is cost/time. The OP could perhaps do well to bring his terminology in line with what the game uses, and clarify that base cost is being used when calculating the new time, so that imbecilic cretins like yourself have no excuse to complain, but he was not unclear.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Ferdoc » Sat 16 May, 2015 06:50

Wlerin wrote:
Ferdoc wrote:seeing a time = (cost/production) you are saying speed = cost / (cost/production)? So speed = production. so much for a useful manner of information. Should we multiply production by the percentage seeing as per your argument speed is production?

Yes. Production capacity is the rate at which ships are produced, that is, the speed.

v = cred/h = production

Congrats, you've managed to catch up. Savour this moment, as it won't last long.


Catch up? Right, I had to catch up to point out that your comment is saying that speed is production, which makes the OP's comment hilarious. "We want to multiply production and production by the same multiplier." Yep, so glad I caught up to that piece of magical wisdom...

Wlerin wrote:
production in game is simply cost/production.

See, now you're using the same word to mean two different things in one sentence. Don't do that. The time a single production order takes to complete is "simply" cost/rate of production, that is, cost/speed.


My appologies, I should have said productivity. My advice is the same to you. since speed == production (which wonder of wonders we've miraculously found out in this thread) my comment of cost/production == cost/rate of production == cost/speed. Do you mind picking one to go with that actually uses in game terminology? it would do wonders to keep things clear.



Wlerin wrote:Which is idiotic. Yes, he failed to specify that the original cost would be used, but you're playing the fool (as usual) if you think that wasn't assumed, and should have been assumed.



No, I'm taking the OP at his word Wlerin. Its not foolish to take someone at their word and use their word to define the parameters of their idea. It does this magical thing for them. It shows that words have value and impact. Ignoring the value and impact of those words and just tossing out what sounds nice debases the value and leads you to make rookie mistakes.

I don't assume the OP would prefer different words. To make such an assumption might over-estimate their capability to plan and examine things. Which is a far greater crime than assuming the opposite. Mine allows me to be pleasantly surprised. Your's, on the other hand, makes you seem naive.

Wlerin wrote:
Ferdoc wrote:The 'speed' of production is increased 10 fold. Or the time it takes to produce a single unit is reduce by 90%.

Generally, it is wise to have some basic understanding of a subject before venturing an opinion on it. The subject in this case being maths.


Again, I'm taking the OP at their word, giving them no further credit than what they provide. You are injecting additional information and attempting to reconcile that which the OP claims is correct.

Wlerin wrote:
Ferdoc wrote:Then we end up with every unit being 10% of its cost. Back to the BS calculation its 2000*.1/200 or 200/200. from 10 hours to 1 hour.

No. No no no.

Using your asinine reasoning, the formula would be : (cost * factor / (production * factor) )

or in the case of battleships: (2000*.1/(200*.1))

The factors cancel. It'd still take 10 hours (it would always take 10 hours), the player just randomly decides whether he wants to pay more or less. This is moronic. Of course the base cost would be used, as it is in many other places in the game.


Case in point, this. You show a moronic way, your words not mine, that has this idea nullify itself. My take on the matter took the rate of production as speed (duration of time for a single unit to be produced) and compared it to the normal method of determining the production rate and found them to be identical. Meaning the commentary was redundant and counter productive. In either case the idea does not work as the OP intends.


Wlerin wrote:
Ferdoc wrote:Speed is never in the base mechanics of the game. Its always derived and the OP wishes to alter the base mechanics resulting in a change to the refined numbers that violates his own comment on effect of the idea.

I take it you haven't moved your fleet any time in the recent past. Ships have a speed (literally so called), it's the distance travelled per unit of time (in this case an hour), i.e. distance/time. The equivalent "speed" for production is that very same production rate discussed above, which is cost/time. The OP could perhaps do well to bring his terminology in line with what the game uses, and clarify that base cost is being used when calculating the new time, so that imbecilic cretins like yourself have no excuse to complain, but he was not unclear.


My bad I thought you were following the segment of the game that this is involving. The OP is talking about creating units. Not moving them. Creating them, you know producing them. Those are the mechanics we are discussing. And yes, I'm just an 'imbecilic cretin' for having an issue with the mechanics of an idea as presented. Not the OP who aggressively stands by their comments MULTIPLE times. He was unclear. If you present a change to the game and have the FUNDAMENTALS be incorrect to such an extent that they either cancel out, as you present, or have the OPPOSITE effect... that is unclear. Your personal preference to defer to an OP notwithstanding.

Not moving units from A to B, which arguably they don't actually MOVE from point A to point B. They sit at point A until a countdown has finished and then instantly appear at point B. The amount of time they take to travel is 0, as when the counter hits 0 the duration of time they take to go from A to B is 0, ignoring the limitations of technology. Meaning distance/time is unsolvable. The time we see is the time it takes to start the traveling. The reason why this is the case is the same as the argument against intercepting fleets. Since fleets don't really travel from point A to point B there is no fleet movement to intercept. But that's something for you to flap your gums over elsewhere. Remember this is something you are so eager to talk about... a thread about speed == production.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Person012345 » Sat 16 May, 2015 07:15

The OP is proposing decoupling the actual cost of the item from it's production speed.

Lets put it another way: You can increase the cost of an item to decrease the time it takes to build and decrease the cost to increase the time it takes to build. Increasing the cost 200% would cut the time taken in half. You multiply the cost by X and then divide the time it would take to build (as per the base cost) by X.

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Wlerin » Sat 16 May, 2015 07:18

Ferdoc:

Except he doesn't have the fundamentals incorrect. It is you who completely miss the basics.

As you so cleverly demonstrated, "production" in AE means several things. Producing units, production capacity (or rate), the production page, productions (the units themselves), etc. Knowing my audience I admit I should have written "v = cred/h = production rate", forgive me for being as lazy as yourself.

No, I'm taking the OP at his word Wlerin.

You're disputing about words and things left unsaid (and your own inability to comprehend that speed is the rate at which something happens, not how long it takes), which is pointless in response to a post as detail-sparse as the OP's. The OP doesn't need to use different words. The words he used mean exactly what he meant them to mean.



Furthermore, all the things the OP left unsaid? They're already in game. What the OP describes is nothing more nor less than the double prod mechanics (mentioned in the first sentence of the OP) expanded to cover a range of different costs and rates.



My take on the matter took the rate of production as speed (duration of time for a single unit to be produced)

That is not what either speed nor rate of production (which in this context are the same thing) mean. Your "take" on the matter demonstrated nothing more than a basic lack of understanding of English, mathematics, and game mechanics. It was nonsense.

My bad I thought you were following the segment of the game that this is involving. The OP is talking about creating units. Not moving them. Creating them, you know producing them. Those are the mechanics we are discussing.

And? What's your point, other than that you are incapable of analogy (the foundation of all language and thought)?

----------------

The OP could have done with more detail, but this is not how to ask for it:

This is why people who don't run numbers should never post functions and/or formulas.

*ridiculously off-the-mark calculations*

Please don't post trash like this again.

I note in passing that the OP contains neither functions nor formulas, so the first sentence doesn't even make sense.


----------

An attempt at a formula, for the English challenged among us, follows.

The game provides either a slider button or a numerical entry box, or both, by which you may input a factor to either pay less and take longer, or pay more and receive the ships sooner. The formulae for the resulting cost and time is:

Code: Select all

Cost:            Number of Units * Base Cost * Factor
Production Time: Number of Units * Base Cost / (Production Rate * Factor)

Factor may be anything between 10% and 1000%, that is, 0.1 and 10



Now that that's out of the way, can we perhaps stop with the utterly irrelevant objections and start discussing the actual idea?

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Re: Variable Production Speed

Postby Whis » Sat 16 May, 2015 15:37

Been quite a while since something has made it to the Workshop, and here is a good candidate. Based on sound principles and an expansion on already existing mechanics.


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