Astro Empires Database

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bizmiard
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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby bizmiard » Thu 20 Jan, 2011 01:38

I agree with the above, however I think both solutions have issues that must be worked out before continuing.
My one point of conflict is this: every current feature that AE offers for only upgraded people is singular to that account- ie. if you want to view the scanners, you cant view it for someone else as an upgraded person; if you want to view your capacities page, you cant view it for another person. And so on. This proposed database is the ONLY feature that allows other players who are upgraded to give a free account information they would not normally have, yet is the exact same information they would receive had they been upgraded.

My epitome of the above argument is this: A guild make a new account, and allows all trustworthy members the login info (illegal and against the rules, I know, but it happens now for wormhole accounts, and I predict it will happen again with the database). Now, players contribute in some way to upgrade this account and give it database access, and now you essentially have the scenario of a guild paying for the database, but in a much cheaper way.

For this reason, I cannot support either plan of payment for the database. While I can see the sound logic behind making the database a paid feature, I cannot see any way in which it could be implemented as a paid feature. Now this is not an all-kill to the idea; merely posing some of the questions that will unfailingly come up through the process of implementation. In addition, I do not have a solution to the problem, and am sorry for that. However, the problem still exists, and therefore must be resolved by some means. If you have another alternative, I'm completely open, or if you see some failing in my logic please tell me.

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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Winchester » Thu 20 Jan, 2011 02:10

bizmiard wrote:I agree with the above, however I think both solutions have issues that must be worked out before continuing.
My one point of conflict is this: every current feature that AE offers for only upgraded people is singular to that account- ie. if you want to view the scanners, you cant view it for someone else as an upgraded person; if you want to view your capacities page, you cant view it for another person. And so on. This proposed database is the ONLY feature that allows other players who are upgraded to give a free account information they would not normally have, yet is the exact same information they would receive had they been upgraded.


That's simply the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. There is no way to make a DB that can't be used vicariously, whether we're talking about players or guilds.

My epitome of the above argument is this: A guild make a new account, and allows all trustworthy members the login info (illegal and against the rules, I know, but it happens now for wormhole accounts, and I predict it will happen again with the database). Now, players contribute in some way to upgrade this account and give it database access, and now you essentially have the scenario of a guild paying for the database, but in a much cheaper way.


And when you have fifty different IPs logging into the same account, they all get suspended and the DB account gets banned. I fail to see the problem. Not to mention the fact that a guild of decent size would still need a number of these accounts, as different people will want to do searches at the same time.

For this reason, I cannot support either plan of payment for the database. While I can see the sound logic behind making the database a paid feature, I cannot see any way in which it could be implemented as a paid feature. Now this is not an all-kill to the idea; merely posing some of the questions that will unfailingly come up through the process of implementation. In addition, I do not have a solution to the problem, and am sorry for that. However, the problem still exists, and therefore must be resolved by some means. If you have another alternative, I'm completely open, or if you see some failing in my logic please tell me.


You're forgetting several primary points here:

1: Upgraded players (barring 1 month upgrades) will have full access to the DB already. You are only paying extra if you aren't upgraded and then choose to upgrade, or if you buy the a la carte option. All of this is covered in the paired thread about upgrades.

2: Upgraded players will have access to the tool that allows for significantly increased speed in adding data to the database. Without players scouting, a DB is useless, and being upgraded is without a doubt the most efficient way to scout.

3: The objective is not so much to make everyone who uses the DB pay for it, but to entice people to upgrade. If you're not adding more structures to your bases, and aren't working toward another base, there are only two real reasons to upgrade: scanners and vacation mode. Full DB functionality adds another feature, which encourages more people to upgrade. That's the focus of this as far as being a paid feature goes. As such, it's perfectly fine as it is.

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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Jonny Five » Mon 23 May, 2011 21:41

What's the deadline for getting this database working?

New server opening, we need databases, we will get databases. It would be nice if we had a db that won't see us getting banned/suspended.

:D

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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Event Horizon » Mon 30 May, 2011 11:39

This is just a thought I had. If you want to limit the sharing of DB information from paying to non-paying members you could make it so that db searches generate a report sent to a report inbox that only upgraded members get. These reports could be forwarded to other players with the upgrade but not to those without since they don't have a report inbox to forward them to. Yes you could copy paste the info into an ingame message/email or screen shot it but the answer to that is that you lose a lot of the report's value because it contains links for coordinates and directly to other db functionalities such as shortest route calculators, player tech calculation, fleet summaries etc.

Essentially what I'm suggesting is to break searches into two steps. First generate the report which gives you the raw data which can be shared with other players and then have further tools to analyze the data like telling you total fleet with breakdown by unit, total # of fleets, average fleet size, variability in fleet size (if you really want to get statistical) etc. Another analysis tool you could have is to generate maps from a set of coords in a report say for all members of an enemy guild in a single galaxy. That map can then be saved and you can directly interact with it to send fleet etc. It could also have information from the raw data display with mouse over of highlighted star systems showing fleet totals, enemy bases in the system, jg levels etc. You could even have an overlay function that would let you add in your own guild's or another guild's base coordinates. The analysis tools do not generate reports (the maps would be saved in a map box similar to your Notes) are displayed on your screen in game in a manner that can't be easily read if copied and pasted and loses any links if you do anyway. Some of this is probably better than what current dbs offer (especially the map making functions) and for that reason would definitely encourage players to get upgrades and choose the ingame db over externals. I know it's probably not possible but the map making tools are something that would really make planning ops a lot more efficient and linking them with an in-game db would make it near impossible for external dbs to compete.

In this way you could also allow guilds to share information via report forwarding (assuming the receiver has an upgraded account) and eliminate the need for db linking.

Anyway, this may be going a bit too far beyond the bounds of this topic but I've been dreaming about seeing these kinds of tools in game for a very long time.

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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Carnage 101 » Wed 01 Jun, 2011 19:19

I don't like the attrition of data idea even if it is just limited to econ, base defense and fleets. This could very pointedly derail this idea as this and cost (if not kept reasonable) are the two major reasons I see people not using AE's database.

Like with any database the information is outdated if not regularly updated. This itself should suffice. Early game econ changes, defense changes, levels change rapidly. Late game they remain more constant with small changes. Fleet anyway is constantly changing so why keep any time limit on the data? It does not reduce the already existing level of scouting as the outside databases already exist. I doubt implementing AE database will change it.

Except this I like everything else that has been suggested by Ribben. It is impossible to make everyone happy and for the most part cheaters will always cheat.

I would suggest allowing access to allies of those with only GM status and 1 VGM of the same guild should suffice. The GM of the allied guild could provide the necessary info to whoever in his guild needs it. As for the rest in a coop allied battle usually 1-2 people do the actual planning. So like in most cases movement orders best route etc can be announced or pmed which should suffice. Also many times a new guild is temporarily formed for the purposes of an op. I would like implemented former guild DB access for 10 days after player leaves. This should give more than sufficient time for needed ops implementation and planning. Again they can share information rather than accessing each others DB's as required. Again only current GM and one VGM will have access to allied guilds DB's

I don't see any merit in allowing 45% of an allied guild to have access to the DB. Everything else so far being discussed has little or no additional merit to the primary idea except the two reason I see the DB not working as stated.

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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby CHERUB » Sat 18 Jun, 2011 21:11

Carnage 101 wrote:I don't like the attrition of data idea even if it is just limited to econ, base defense and fleets. This could very pointedly derail this idea as this and cost (if not kept reasonable) are the two major reasons I see people not using AE's database.

Like with any database the information is outdated if not regularly updated. This itself should suffice. Early game econ changes, defense changes, levels change rapidly. Late game they remain more constant with small changes. Fleet anyway is constantly changing so why keep any time limit on the data? It does not reduce the already existing level of scouting as the outside databases already exist. I doubt implementing AE database will change it.


I am not completely sure, but I would think that this is a computer power saving attempt. Many DB's end up saving many tens of thousands of astros and in the larger servers many hundreds of thousands of fleets and Jgs and all manner of relevant things. Not having to save these pieces of data indefinitely seems to me like it would be a computation saving device, as well as a way of slightly balancing the db becuase then you would still have to create lists of enemy gates and primary blob locations and things. You couldn't just look for information that is a year old in the server and see where they have all their highest level JGs.

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Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby JonMace » Sat 09 Jul, 2011 14:57

I am sorry I may have missed something here - but the original idea was that each person would effectively have there own DB, which would travel with them and then when in a guild they would share that info with the guild till they moved (unless the data was scouted in that guild, in which case it would still travel with the payer but be accessible to the guild where it was scouted after the player has left).

Has this changed?


If not it puts a factor of 20 - 50 rather than having it as "the data belongs to the guild" thing.

If it was done like that it could also be a guild upgrade too - even make it really simple and let anyone contribute what ever they like - and have an algorithm as to how much time it adds to the DB

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