Astro Empires Database

This is where the best suggestions are moved to, so discussion can carry on with moderation and be more easily read by the volunteers and development team.

Moderator: Support Moderators

Forum rules
Opening new topics in this forum is not possible, you may only reply to existing topics.

Only users with 50 or more posts can reply to topics.

This forum is moderated, so any posts will have to be approved by a moderator before being published.
User avatar
Hellion
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 5462
Joined: Mon 18 Feb, 2008 15:11
Reputation: 63

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Hellion » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 05:49

Foamy wrote:I had initial reservations, but they were answered by your addendum.

I have only one minor niggle remaining, the lack of sharing with entire guilds.

People use outside DBs now between several guilds sometimes, I don't see why it shouldn't be an option in an AE-run DB. To put it simply, if an AE-run DB doesn't offer what an off-site DB does, it won't cut down on people using scripts by much at all.

Sub-guilds are lame, but I will use them as an example. Why should a guild not be able to see every scrap of info from it's subguild, after both GMs have agreed permissions? I think as well as being able to set a limited number of players from outside your guild with access, you should also be able to set a limited number of guild IDs. By way of a compromise, perhaps you can only see a reduced amount of info from these linked guilds, and not the full shebang. I don't know, I've had a few too many JDs to give it proper thought, but I know I would like to see at least a limited guild sharing feature on an AE-run DB.

Besides that small point though, a well-presented solution to a topic that seems to have been discussed since the dawn of time. I fully support it.


Ya thats partially what I argued for the most part. As suggested it lacks versatility for the players as a whole. It more aims at the idea that unless you are in the guild at the time then you will take tons of handicaps because of it. Also it greatly benefits some guilds over as explained in some of my previous posts. Having the DB slightly split from the actual guild itself or at least opening it to player IDs rather would make it easier to do more with it that you cant do if its locked strictly to the guild. Its also partially why I wouldnt mind seeing it more aimed at cost is based on slots and those slots you can fill with whoever from whatever guild.

As an example with your setup on fenix your guild is more or less 3 different guilds FYAD, MODS, and RAVE. As the idea is suggested either you have to be one guild or you cant effectively use the DB. With a slightly split DB where slots can be filled you could have the leadership fill some of those slots and then increase the number of slots to fill up enough of the members that you want to actually use the DB.

Image
User avatar
Foamy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 17:34
Reputation: 24
Guild: F: [RAVE]
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Foamy » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 06:41

Actually MODS have permanently folded into RAVE now, but that is besides the point.

Having a few select players from other guilds with access to your guild DB is a start, but I feel that being able to share between guilds would be a much better option, if the ultimate goal is to improve the game at the same time as reducing "illegal" script use.

Don't forget, people will be paying extra for this feature (should it be implemented as described in this thread), so I think they should be getting the same features as they would from an off-site DB that would probably be a lot cheaper to run (I know most decent DBs come with a small fee, from what dirty cheaters have told me...)

This is something a lot of players/guilds have been using for a long time already, so adding a sub-standard version to the game just isn't going to cut it. I understand the reservations about hard coding politics into the game, but I personally feel the benefits of cross-guild DB co-operation far outweigh the drawbacks. Some people shout Candyland, but it's what most top guilds/alliances are doing now anyway. At least this way AE will be GAINING revenue from it, rather than having to EXPEND resources tracking down, punishing, and arguing with people it deems cheats for using this kind of DB.

Ribbentrop wrote:I'd wear Xaman on my junk any day of the week.


Support the AE banana hammock petition!

Foamy wisdom #17: The Police never think it's as funny as you do.
User avatar
Winchester
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 17729
Joined: Tue 24 Mar, 2009 00:44
Reputation: 766
Location: The World Wide Cesspool

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Winchester » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 07:27

Foamy wrote:Don't forget, people will be paying extra for this feature (should it be implemented as described in this thread)


No, they won't. Full DB access comes standard with a year upgrade.

By the way, I have a question for you, Hellion, and anyone else that is arguing for full sharing: is there any harm in launching it as I have outlined above, getting feedback after a few weeks of running/seeing how many people stop getting caught with scripts, and then consider adding more sharing options at that point if it is deemed necessary?

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things."
User avatar
Foamy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 17:34
Reputation: 24
Guild: F: [RAVE]
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Foamy » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 07:34

Ribbentrop wrote:
Foamy wrote:Don't forget, people will be paying extra for this feature (should it be implemented as described in this thread)


No, they won't. Full DB access comes standard with a year upgrade.


So yes, technically they are still paying for the feature. Plus to link your other upgrades topic in, some could buy it seperately eventually. Without getting picky, the point I'm trying to make is that if you make it too expensive, without the feature support of a private DB, then it is pretty useless. If someone can pay $10/year for a DB they can fully customize, they won't bother entertaining an in-game DB that gives them a very limited scope of access. How many years has the game been going now? And people still use scripts to add features that haven't yet been incorporated into the game.

It's a fine balance, I know, but I think that ultimately if AE introduces a DB similar to the popular ones in use at the moment, it will be to the benefit of the game (both in a playability sense, and financially).

By the way, I have a question for you, Hellion, and anyone else that is arguing for full sharing: is there any harm in launching it as I have outlined above, getting feedback after a few weeks of running/seeing how many people stop getting caught with scripts, and then consider adding more sharing options at that point if it is deemed necessary?


Not necessarily, but considering the time it takes for AE to introduce changes, I think it'd be better to get the fundamentals ironed out before introducing it, and then just work on the small niggles.

EDIT: I also don't think the guild-sharing part of the DB should be unlimited, or complete. As a compromise a limit of 2, perhaps 3 guilds, and a reduced visibility of info could be one way to balance the idea out slightly.

Ribbentrop wrote:I'd wear Xaman on my junk any day of the week.


Support the AE banana hammock petition!

Foamy wisdom #17: The Police never think it's as funny as you do.
User avatar
Hellion
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 5462
Joined: Mon 18 Feb, 2008 15:11
Reputation: 63

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Hellion » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 07:54

Ribbentrop wrote:
Foamy wrote:Don't forget, people will be paying extra for this feature (should it be implemented as described in this thread)


No, they won't. Full DB access comes standard with a year upgrade.

By the way, I have a question for you, Hellion, and anyone else that is arguing for full sharing: is there any harm in launching it as I have outlined above, getting feedback after a few weeks of running/seeing how many people stop getting caught with scripts, and then consider adding more sharing options at that point if it is deemed necessary?


Primarily I just dont like the idea of the guild only being able to give X% of their membership access to the DB outside of their guild. It will effectively kill DB use to every guild I play in nearly.

The main reason it kills it is lets say the guild you play in is a smaller guild and you do a joint op. Lets say for ease of math is 50 members in size and majority of those players tend to be active and therefore usually join in on ops. So 40 of the 50 members move guilds therefore 10 members are left therefore 3 links @ 30% have access. So 3 members in the op guild and 10 members that decided to hang back have access to your DB which in many ways will leave it useless if you have any desire to continue to scout.

So as I mentioned in pms to someone this would effectively mean the only way to counter this and make your guild functional is mass recruit enough fodder players that the active core part of the guild can move around as needed. Any guild with 30% or more of their guild active then this hurts them. If less then 30% of your guild is active then it wont effect you at all.

Image
User avatar
Foamy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 17:34
Reputation: 24
Guild: F: [RAVE]
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Foamy » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 07:57

Hellion wrote:Primarily I just dont like the idea of the guild only being able to give X% of their membership access to the DB outside of their guild. It will effectively kill DB use to every guild I play in nearly.

Well, it wouldn't kill DB use, it would just mean that people wouldn't bother using the AE provided DB, and would continue using the off-site DBs they use now. Or, at best, it would mean new scripts would be written to take info from AE DBs, and input it to off-site DBs, still not really removing the problem of people using their own scripts etc. to make the game more playable.

Ribbentrop wrote:I'd wear Xaman on my junk any day of the week.


Support the AE banana hammock petition!

Foamy wisdom #17: The Police never think it's as funny as you do.
User avatar
Hellion
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 5462
Joined: Mon 18 Feb, 2008 15:11
Reputation: 63

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Hellion » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 08:00

Foamy wrote:
Hellion wrote:Primarily I just dont like the idea of the guild only being able to give X% of their membership access to the DB outside of their guild. It will effectively kill DB use to every guild I play in nearly.

Well, it wouldn't kill DB use, it would just mean that people wouldn't bother using the AE provided DB, and would continue using the off-site DBs they use now. Or, at best, it would mean new scripts would be written to take info from AE DBs, and input it to off-site DBs, still not really removing the problem of people using their own scripts etc. to make the game more playable.


I didnt mean it would kill external DBs more so I meant it would kill the usefulness of the AE DB. If the DB doesnt function 90% of the time you really need to use it then its not a useful addition. As proposed it would only be useful for initial intel then if you needed to joint op with another guild no one could get it to work anymore. As stated in the example if you only have 3 people linked over in the op guild and 10 people that hang back then the DB isnt doing very many people any good.

Image
User avatar
Foamy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 17:34
Reputation: 24
Guild: F: [RAVE]
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Foamy » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 08:02

I get what you mean now, and I agree.

An underpowered DB is ultimately a useless token addition.

Ribbentrop wrote:I'd wear Xaman on my junk any day of the week.


Support the AE banana hammock petition!

Foamy wisdom #17: The Police never think it's as funny as you do.
User avatar
Hellion
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 5462
Joined: Mon 18 Feb, 2008 15:11
Reputation: 63

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Hellion » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 08:16

Foamy wrote:I get what you mean now, and I agree.

An underpowered DB is ultimately a useless token addition.


Sadly though it will only be underpowered to some. Primarily smaller guilds which simply puts a great deal more edge to the bigger guilds. So its not even strictly a token addition but more of strengthening the already large guilds to become more powerful :/ On the other hand my goal isnt to handicap the large guilds either but its more to make it versatile enough that current strategies can somewhat function and because of said addition it doesnt only make certain types of strategies work in this case mass recruitment.

Its kind of why I went more the route of X slots for X dollars capped at X slots so you cant put the entire server under the same DB. If the DB is more or less a separate element from the actual guild it will not actually interfere with much of anything currently. Capping the number of slots and adding cost to what cap you choose would at least reduce the cost of the databases for everyone while at the same time reducing overall lag. Maybe your a guild of 40 members and only need ~25 slots because thats the bulk of your semi active players. You could purchase enough slots in your DB to only make those 25 able to access it. You are effectively only purchasing the lag your DB would actually create. If you have a 200 member guild and only 50 are active then pay for 50 slots which ideally would be cheaper then adding 200 members to the DB. Now your only creating lag from the 50 rather then off and on lag from the other 150 as well.

So from a business perspective its one of the most beneficial routes for both sides. Rather then make all members pay X dollars more for an upgrade + improved upgrade you could move all the cost straight to the person or people that end up maintaining the DB itself.

Image
User avatar
Winchester
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 17729
Joined: Tue 24 Mar, 2009 00:44
Reputation: 766
Location: The World Wide Cesspool

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Winchester » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 08:18

If you make people pay extra to link it, people will still use the off-site DB.

"That's what I do. I drink and I know things."
User avatar
Hellion
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 5462
Joined: Mon 18 Feb, 2008 15:11
Reputation: 63

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Hellion » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 08:22

Ribbentrop wrote:If you make people pay extra to link it, people will still use the off-site DB.


I think if the DB is actually semi functional and gets the job done I know most of the people I talk with regularly would likely not use other DB's. Why pay for an AE DB then also pay for a DB from someone else if they do pretty much the same thing? It doesnt make much sense.

Image
User avatar
Foamy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 17:34
Reputation: 24
Guild: F: [RAVE]
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Foamy » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 08:33

Hellion wrote:
Ribbentrop wrote:If you make people pay extra to link it, people will still use the off-site DB.


I think if the DB is actually semi functional and gets the job done I know most of the people I talk with regularly would likely not use other DB's. Why pay for an AE DB then also pay for a DB from someone else if they do pretty much the same thing? It doesnt make much sense.

As I've been saying, you need to tread a fine line between profit and functionality. If the devs implement an AE-supported DB then obviously they're going to want it to greatly reduce illegal DB use. Making it too expensive is just as bad as making it totally underpowered, and has exactly the same effect. People won't use it, as Ribb said they'll carry on using whatever they have now.

No, I think there needs to be a certain level of guild linkability (it's a word, I just used it in a sentence) in the DB package as standard, or it really isn't going to make the DB favourable to guilds over whatever they choose to use at the moment (and lets face it, the majority of top guilds use DBs, it's a necessary part of the game).

Ribbentrop wrote:I'd wear Xaman on my junk any day of the week.


Support the AE banana hammock petition!

Foamy wisdom #17: The Police never think it's as funny as you do.
User avatar
kris
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3067
Joined: Thu 15 Mar, 2007 21:33
Reputation: 73

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby kris » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 19:07

Ribbentrop wrote:If you make people pay extra to link it, people will still use the off-site DB.


If the data of alliances is not shared then people will use another one, thats basically guaranteed.

And it wont even be illegal to do for most players since the data could just be copied and accessed off site

User avatar
Foamy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat 17 Apr, 2010 17:34
Reputation: 24
Guild: F: [RAVE]
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby Foamy » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 19:26

kris wrote:
Ribbentrop wrote:If you make people pay extra to link it, people will still use the off-site DB.


If the data of alliances is not shared then people will use another one, thats basically guaranteed.

And it wont even be illegal to do for most players since the data could just be copied and accessed off site

It would technically be illegal, as you'd need some kind of script to do it, however it would most likely be untraceable.

Ribbentrop wrote:I'd wear Xaman on my junk any day of the week.


Support the AE banana hammock petition!

Foamy wisdom #17: The Police never think it's as funny as you do.
User avatar
-Link-
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2216
Joined: Fri 05 Mar, 2010 00:56
Reputation: 29
Guild: [«ISM»]
Galaxy: Alpha
Contact:

Re: Astro Empires Database

Postby -Link- » Wed 17 Nov, 2010 19:32

Foamy wrote:
kris wrote:
Ribbentrop wrote:If you make people pay extra to link it, people will still use the off-site DB.


If the data of alliances is not shared then people will use another one, thats basically guaranteed.

And it wont even be illegal to do for most players since the data could just be copied and accessed off site

It would technically be illegal, as you'd need some kind of script to do it, however it would most likely be untraceable.

like a screen capture of some sorts?

-Link- wrote:he crawls from his cave of baww where the sheep roam fluffy and freely until they plummet to their deaths at the hands of the merciless fr regulars

Return to “FR Workshop”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest