Wormhole Abuse

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Khamul Nazgul
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Wormhole Abuse

Postby Khamul Nazgul » Sun 27 Feb, 2011 15:26

Seems on many servers, guilds have players build on WHs for permanent eyes.
Some guilds abuse this as we all know it's obvious many are multi's (Not pointing any fingers, ofc.)

I propose a upgrade or downgrade whichever way you'd like to look at it.


Wormholes

Once a Wormhole spawns, the entire region the Wormhole is in, no new bases can be made in that region until the Wormhole moves on to another location.

The gravitational pull of a Wormhole makes it impossible to build a new base in said Region.


Why do this?

Stops the continual abuse by those who multi account players to build on wormholes for the own guilds benefit.

Personally I & I hope many others feel, why should they have the advantage, everyone should have the advantage or no one should have the advantage of permanent eyes.


I hope you all consider this :)

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Rayy » Sun 27 Feb, 2011 20:06

Considering I've seen one good astro have the wh spawn on it ever, just recently in the teens in Juno, a P2 Rocky Planet I do not see this as a problem. Yes there may be good astros in the system the wormhole is in but rarely on, and there will probably be a really crappy selection of astros there. Some guilds get friends of the leaders that don't "really" play to just come and build on the wormholes for perma-eyes to help their friends.

I think UFP and RAID might be doing that in Juno (not that I'm saying they do) as both have players who have built bases in every wh system from what I've seen (the pillage on the raid one was pretty good btw, sad to see it go UFP one had protection). Considering the damage you have to take from building a base in such a region especially if theres no metal 3's available to you I hardly see it as a problem, and a its legitimate tactic.

Additionally if they do have friends maintaining accounts to do so I don't see it as a problem as both sides can do that.

Are there guilds that multi for permaeyes on the wh's and to build JG's? Yes, there are, but just because someone cheats you should not punish legitimate players.

I do think wormholes need another kind of debuff personally, but not of this kind and not where they would never be used like previously. (see bringing back the damage)

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Treasurer » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 04:19

How about only letting accounts over a certain level to be allowed to build a new base in a WH region?

I think the original logic was to put a road block to multy abuse by certain individuals who use this tactic. As most common multy accounts are usually under level 30 it would seem that blocking newer accounts from building in WH regions would be an acceptable alternative to me.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Ferdoc » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 04:23

Treasurer wrote:How about only letting accounts over a certain level to be allowed to build a new base in a WH region?


How about no. You also prevent LEGITIMATE players from doing the same.
Last edited by Puck on Fri 18 Mar, 2011 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed inflammatory part

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Khamul Nazgul » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 04:46

IF you all are all caught up on "players should be-able to build anywhere they want" statement.

Why build there when a Wormhole popped up in the first place?
The ONLY reason is for permanent eyes of which is being abused with Multi accounts.

Whether you like it or not, I'm right.

There's plenty of planets/moons to be built on outside of a Wormhole Region, you can always wait till after the Wormhole moves if you want a certain astro in said region THAT BAD.


This Idea encourages all around fairness, but hey I guess you "no" players don't want any competition right.

It brings back the tactical side to the Wormhole Idea which was the whole point of it, many guilds don't even use the wormholes during wars because many guilds have permanent eyes on the wormholes as they built bases on the wormholes as they popped up for personal guild advantage.

If any guild launched through a wormhole.
They'd just get caught out as soon as they launch through the wormhole.


If this idea does not get put forward, I can tell you now.

HONESTLY.

It WILL encourage more guilds to make multi accounts of there own so they can have permanent eyes.

They have to keep up with the cheaters some how right? :)

Oh and Ribb, saying I am getting friends here?
Fish Heads for example is on the opposite block on my server, meaning my enemy.

Both blocks agree this is the best to better further the server.
Last edited by Puck on Fri 18 Mar, 2011 19:01, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed flamebaiting

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Universe » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 05:19

You claim they're all multi's but have no proof. For all you know they could be friends from other servers who have been asked to make an account for the purpose of building bases on wormholes. And whether you like it or not, there is nothing wrong with that and there is no reason why that should change.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby KOMPLEX » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 05:27

Stopping players building bases or building bases below a certain level will not change what your wanting. Any fleet worth its pixels to a guild will be seen at the max 12 hour travel time, so a ship in the region will still have eyes on it.

Your idea, is changing nothing bar adding a few extra clicks & maybe a few more scouts in prod to keep eyes on wormholes.

Its a First-Come, First-Served basis. As with starting positions upon game start.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Treasurer » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 05:33

Treasurer wrote:
How about only letting accounts over a certain level to be allowed to build a new base in a WH region?

Ferdoc wrote:
How about no. You also prevent LEGITIMATE players from doing the same.


Explain why a <30 level account would LEGITIMATELY would want to build a base next to a WH? What purpose would it serve other than to keep eyes on it?

If they are established players that aren't afraid to be be oc'd, then so be it. But an account still under noob protection building a base next to a WH is up to no good and in bad form. Spawn your scouts and send them to their deaths. That's what they are for.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby basilisk101 » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 06:09

Universe wrote:You claim they're all multi's but have no proof. For all you know they could be friends from other servers who have been asked to make an account for the purpose of building bases on wormholes. And whether you like it or not, there is nothing wrong with that and there is no reason why that should change.

^this

For example, my ixion account is a JG/eyes account. Most of my astros are crap, because I built them specifically to keep eyes on other astros, or to be JG's. It's my only account on Ixion, and I'm the only one who plays it. Don't presume every WH base is built by a multi.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Winchester » Mon 28 Feb, 2011 09:07

Khamul Nazgul wrote:Ignore Ferdoc guys, he is just sour because he dislikes me.

IF you all are all caught up on "players should be-able to build anywhere they want" statement.

Why build there when a Wormhole popped up in the first place?
The ONLY reason is for permanent eyes of which is being abused with Multi accounts.

Whether you like it or not, I'm right.


Except that you're not.

Scenario #1: A random noob sends an OS on a long flight to that location, because he wants a base there. While in flight, a wormhole pops up. He's now out of luck.

Scenario #2: A random noob sees a wormhole, and builds a base there on the grounds that it will get him noticed, and might allow him to get into a better guild.

Scenario #3: A player in the non-dominant guild within that galaxy wants to mess with the people that have been occupying them in said galaxy, and builds on the WH to keep them from doing so.

Scenario #4: A player who is not a multi was already planning on building a base in that galaxy, and decides to put it on the wormhole to help out his guild, since he's building a base anyways.

Scenario #5: A player in a large guild builds a base on the wormhole in an enemy-controlled galaxy, so that they have a jumpgate from which to launch an attack.

You see, if you can theorize legitimate reasons to build on a WH, then your premise is invalid; you have not offered any proof that the only people building on wormholes are multis that are meant to give eyes to guilds, and I have offered proof that there are situations in which people could legitimately want to build on a wormhole. Ergo, until you actually support your premise, it stands flawed and is therefore irrelevant.

There's plenty of planets/moons to be built on outside of a Wormhole Region, you can always wait till after the Wormhole moves if you want a certain astro in said region THAT BAD.


There are absolutely zero mechanics that prevent you from building on whatever colonizable astros you want. If you can fly to the region, you can build in the region. I've already listed five scenarios where players can want to legitimately build in the WH region, but let's list another - the dominant guild in the galaxy where the WH popped up already has a base in the WH region. In order to balance it out, you want your own eyes there. What's fair is fair.

This Idea encourages all around fairness, but hey I guess you "no" players don't want any competition right.


Except that it doesn't encourage fairness. But hey, sweet assumptions you got there.

It brings back the tactical side to the Wormhole Idea which was the whole point of it, many guilds don't even use the wormholes during wars because many guilds have permanent eyes on the wormholes as they built bases on the wormholes as they popped up for personal guild advantage.


Ignoratio elenchi. Most guilds at war will know of and will have permanent eyes on any large gates that can be used by the enemy to attack; those gates will normally include flight times of 12+ hours, which means that you have just as much of a chance of finding people flying in normally as through a wormhole. The tactical element of wormholes is that they only take twelve hours to fly through - ergo, you only give the enemy 12-16 hours warning before you attack. There are very few times when a guild can legitimately sneak in to attack an enemy, which means that speed is of the essence; therefore, the fact that an enemy can see you will not deter the attack unless the attack would be deterred regardless of the flight method used.

If any guild launched through a wormhole.
They'd just get caught out as soon as they launch through the wormhole.


If your guild launched to any allied gate with a high enough level or close enough location to the enemy blob to support your invasion, they'd be caught out as soon as they launched, or at the 48 hour visibility mark - which is four times the detection notice of wormholes, by the way.

If this idea does not get put forward, I can tell you now.

HONESTLY.

It WILL encourage more guilds to make multi accounts of there own so they can have permanent eyes.


1: [citation needed]
2: Prove that these multi accounts won't already be occurring.
3: Wormholes have been usable for how many months now, since the damage was removed? And how many low level multis are there in top guilds? Let's take a look at Ceti; these are the top five guilds, and their number of sub-thirty accounts. Now, mind you, this does not prove at all that they are multis - only that they're below level thirty.

Rocky: 4
Smurf: 1
Paper: 2
HeiHo: 1
Dojo: 2

You know, for being such an epidemic, I'm not really seeing that many sub-thirty accounts. Weird, huh?

They have to keep up with the cheaters some how right? :)


And they already do that through established means.

Oh and Ribb, saying I am getting friends here?
Fish Heads for example is on the opposite block on my server, meaning my enemy.


Please read what I actually wrote, not what you suppose I wrote.

Ribbentrop wrote:It looks bad when a ton of people that have never/rarely posted in FR flock to your thread to sign it. I'm not saying you asked them to support it, but that sure is what it looks like.


FR is not a democracy, so having people that rarely - if ever - post in FR suddenly flood an idea with support does not help you, and can hurt how your idea appears in the eyes of the regulars. I don't care if you just linked the post or told them to support it, and I'm not saying that you told them to support it - my point is that you're not doing yourself a favor by informing people from your server about your thread, unless you ask them not to post.

Both blocks agree this is the best to better further the server.
So try again on trying to hurt my idea.


You've hurt your own idea far worse than I ever could by refusing to provide evidence to support your assertions. Logic speaks for itself.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Rasputin » Tue 01 Mar, 2011 01:38

Why dont admins switch it up a bit and put WH's by a system with Gas Giants or asteroid belts only.

AE did give them location co-ords. That would totally stop all of the abuse in its tracks at least a couple times a year.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Winchester » Sat 05 Mar, 2011 22:58

Rasputin wrote:Why dont admins switch it up a bit and put WH's by a system with Gas Giants or asteroid belts only.

AE did give them location co-ords. That would totally stop all of the abuse in its tracks at least a couple times a year.


I'm answering this because you asked me to.

First of all, are you suggesting that wormholes spawn on GG/AB? The reason they don't is because you can't land on them, and changing it so that you can land on one when there's a WH on it is an inelegant solution that will confuse some people, annoy others, and will reopen the floodgates for suggestions of things to do with GG/AB. If you're saying to put it in a single astro/single system area, then it's still a problem.

I have yet to see anyone substantiate how the building of bases on or near a wormhole counts as abuse. Until someone does, every suggestion for "fixing the problem" starts from a false premise.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Puck » Fri 18 Mar, 2011 19:05

Moved on request of the OP. In addition to the original topic, feel free to discuss wormhole mechanics as well, if you feel they might need to be changed.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Winchester » Fri 18 Mar, 2011 19:17

Why does a fundamentally flawed idea belong in the Workshop? I've already addressed the major issues in the concept, and pointed out the mountain of unfounded assumptions that this idea is based on.

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Re: Wormhole Abuse

Postby Puck » Fri 18 Mar, 2011 19:25

Ribbentrop wrote:Why does a fundamentally flawed idea belong in the Workshop? I've already addressed the major issues in the concept, and pointed out the mountain of unfounded assumptions that this idea is based on.


Because I felt like it.

Also,
Puck wrote:feel free to discuss wormhole mechanics as well, if you feel they might need to be changed.

Lord, what fools these mortals be!
Know the rules and how to appeal.
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