Evergreen State College Insanity

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Logans Run » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 12:27

Tldr.

This whole article is about liberalism. Evvverry one of those *beep* that wants a non-white day..isa lib. A *beep* bad one too.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Frederic Chopin » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 18:36

Winchester wrote:If you want to argue conservatism v. liberalism by focusing on individuals, then bring it on. Also, I would argue that, barring the outright corrupt - and I'm pretty willing to agree that most US presidents have been corrupt, on both sides of the aisle - the flaws of the left tend to be more because of misguided people. Conversely, the flaws on the right are far more blatantly intentional in going against any genuine positive interests. The same side that values human life by opposing abortion and assisted suicide is also the side that supports capital punishment, militarism, imperialism, and refuses to give any sort of medical, financial, or other support to the same children that they want to prevent being aborted.

What you see as a handout I see as the fundamental purpose of government - the only reason it causes problems is because the right is propelling base capitalism, which frankly encourages the abuse of a system where something is provided as of right. If we move away from capitalism, we can begin reducing personal greed and encouraging productivity as a simple matter of life in a modern society.

I'm also not going to debate you about climate change. You can always find studies that slant things, but that doesn't change the overwhelming evidence that it's an actual thing. I also really don't understand the objection to climate change; even if we pretend it isn't a real thing, so what? It's encouraging the use of renewable energy sources. This planet has finite resources, and I'm all for encouraging ways to free ourselves from the tyranny of burning natural resources. It also provides us the room to begin moving the Middle East into the twenty-first century, as we'll be less concerned with pissing them off.

To what degree do you believe that the next generation of mainstream conservatives will resemble the older ones?

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Logans Run » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 19:22

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/08/upshot/why-teenagers-may-be-getting-more-conservative.html?_r=0&referer=

Here..didnt read but i already know more young ppl are turning conservative. And i even picked a libtard link.
And thank God for that. All you libs with your "booo capitalism" can go *beep* off and live in a non capitalist society and sit n spin.

..thx God (yes God) for the next Generation. Cus Millennials are idiots. (Sorry..most of you are. ..and go ahead..blame others. Like me..a Gen Xer. ..its what your best at) :bleh:

Edit: read most. Gawd the NYtimea sure likes to rose over a defeat..

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Bionic redhead » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 22:46

Logans Run wrote:https://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/08/upshot/why-teenagers-may-be-getting-more-conservative.html?_r=0&referer=

Here..didnt read but i already know more young ppl are turning conservative. And i even picked a libtard link.
And thank God for that. All you libs with your "booo capitalism" can go *beep* off and live in a non capitalist society and sit n spin.

..thx God (yes God) for the next Generation. Cus Millennials are idiots. (Sorry..most of you are. ..and go ahead..blame others. Like me..a Gen Xer. ..its what your best at) :bleh:

Edit: read most. Gawd the NYtimea sure likes to rose over a defeat..


Millenials are killing internet debates

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Canaris » Tue 13 Jun, 2017 23:20

Winchester wrote:What you see as a handout I see as the fundamental purpose of government - the only reason it causes problems is because the right is propelling base capitalism, which frankly encourages the abuse of a system where something is provided as of right. If we move away from capitalism, we can begin reducing personal greed and encouraging productivity as a simple matter of life in a modern society.


The only end result of moving toward collective welfare is slavery. Everyone must be held at gunpoint. It does not improve anyone's life. Everyone's name is on a list, everyone's resources and property belong to the government, and without those you have no liberty. Historically speaking, every single government has turned on it's people at one point or another in this way. There is a modern example of this: Venezuela.

Venezuela is a liberal paradise today, isn't it? And before you say there's no comparison, there absolutely is. Hugo Chavez said very similar things. Eliminating the greed of the capitalists and extending basic human rights to all people, giving them back their livelihood and productivity. I know you're not stupid and I'm sure you're not advocating for a huge, tyrannical government. I just don't see any other way it can be done.

There has never, ever been a benevolent or even benign government.

Sweden has taken in 700,000 'refugees'. Overwhelmingly young men. Sweden is now the rape capital of the world. Violent crime has risen over 2,000 percent. Less than one percent of refugees have found jobs but they will all receive education and welfare. Sweden's expenses will be 9 times greater than their budget in 2017. Do you believe that is the fundamental purpose of government as well? I know you're not calling for mass immigration but I have to ask, "where does it end?" Sweden is having these problems because they determined, like you, that certain things were a right and that it was the purpose of government to provide welfare. Today, the Swedish government has said that Sweden belongs to the immigrants, not to Swedes. This is the cost of extensive state welfare which must necessarily be globalist in order to function. Once you open that door of legislating morality en masse, you can never close it. You have to forsake your own people in order to maintain the charade. I'm not just making things up here, this is historical. Anyone can read about it.

And anyway, statistics show that charity is more effective than a bloated, wasteful welfare state. I'm not sure how you expect, say, the US government to provide all the welfare that people need when Medicare and the VA can barely function. This isn't hyperbole. Are you aware of the massive shortfall in the UK's NHS budget? They have a fraction of our poverty levels (per capita) and they cannot keep up.

There is no perfect system but I would rather have equality of opportunity than equality of outcome. There is a middle ground to be had but I don't believe that's what the left - the so-called liberals - are looking for. They want it all and to eat their cake too. Maybe when Americans know what it's like to be a modern Swede or Venezuelan, they'll change their tunes and the pendulum will swing the other way. But by then it might be too late.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Winchester » Wed 14 Jun, 2017 00:46

Canshow: I think we'll see one of two things for conservatives in the next 10-20 years. We'll either see a huge growth in libertarianism (not real libertarianism, of course, but instead the watered down conservative libertarianism of American politics) or the development and success of, in essence, Nationalist Capitalists. Libertarianism is the right's answer to intellectual leftism, while nationalist capitalism plays to the base instincts, racism, and prejudice that has been cultivated in this country since its inception.

Canaris: I don't disagree that the actual ideals of liberalism are quite likely impossible to achieve within the next hundred years. Where I see liberalism thriving is when we've managed to escape this planet and branch out in the galaxy; colonies will be small, with everyone pulling their own weight, and presumably transit will be prohibitively expensive - making interplanetary economies extremely unwieldy and unpopular in a strict capitalist modality. That would pave the way for a form of utilitarian liberalism, I think. If we can change ourselves enough as a species, we might even be able to overcome our need for wealth and power before we reach the point where travel is no longer costly.

In the meantime, there absolutely has to be compromise away from the goals of liberalism. You can't just jump whole hog into a fully non-capitalist society and expect things to work. The problem that I see is that we're too busy arguing in absolutes - whether government programs should exist at all. Instead, our focus needs to be on where to draw the line, what requirements to impose, etc. We also need compromises, which will necessarily entail people losing the right to do whatever the hell they want. Yes, pure capitalism might be better served with zero regulations and oversight, but pure capitalism doesn't create enough inherent value to justify its own costs. We need balance.

And in the meantime, we really, really need to get the right to mind their own damn business about other people's lives. The sort of hypocrisy that I'm talking about is when the right tries to give maximum wiggle room for corporations to do whatever they want, however they want, etc, but isn't willing to give individuals the semblance to do the same. I have a pretty serious problem with a philosophy that allows corporations to enjoy the rights of human beings while preventing consenting adults from getting married simply because of their chromosomes. I'm also rather tired of the right treating religion (and by religion I mean Christianity alone) as the greatest foundation of American society, above all censure and reproach, and entitled to government support, government funding, and a legal right to use mythology as the justification for wholesale discrimination.

I don't think we really disagree in principle. We just don't agree on where to draw the lines. I would frankly love it if we could lose the partisan nonsense and actually start figuring out where those lines should be, but we're too busy arguing whether the lines should even exist in the first place.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Logans Run » Wed 14 Jun, 2017 03:32

Keep calling us racist and deplorables, Wincheater.
That worked out well last election.
And keep that utopian planet hopping idea in your head. Thats a nice dream too.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Winchester » Wed 14 Jun, 2017 04:31

I don't recall doing either. But then, I'm also not running for election. And hey, riddle me this. If you support something that has consequences that undeniably affect minorities to a significant degree, while propping up a system that keeps minorities in a perpetual state of diminished personhood, and you know that these are the consequences of your actions...then can you truly say that you're not acting the tiniest bit racist?

Also, it's a pretty straightforward fact that we either leave the planet or die here. I prefer to let our species continue. But maybe that's just me trying to find an intergalactic safe space.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Logans Run » Wed 14 Jun, 2017 06:01

Ya you did. Called one side racist.
Keep minorities down? Thats exactly what liberals do. Keep blacks down by telling them they are all victims.
"Vote for me..i'll give you stuff..you dont have to work. I know..whitey is bad."
Basically the true racist. We just dont call you out.
(Well..i do)

Not saying one day we wont be on other planets. Its just laughable how libs (ok..just you then) all think a communist society is the way to make said planet thrive.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Winchester » Wed 14 Jun, 2017 18:10

Can you quote me on the racist thing? Because I'm not seeing it.

But in any case, I'm amused that you think recognizing victimization is the real problem here. As opposed to gerrymandering, for-profit prisons, racially motivated practices in policing, the war on drugs, mandatory minimum sentences, the permanent consequences of felony convictions, disproportionate sentencing, refusal to provide meaningful treatment options (even though studies show they save money and reduce recidivism), the difficulties of entering and staying in the country legally, regressive taxes, taxes that specifically harm lower income families and individuals, refusal to provide meaningful healthcare options for low income families and individuals, lack of funding for public schools (particularly in lower income areas), voter ID laws, cultural eradication in the name of gentrification, victim blaming, treating victims of human trafficking as criminals, treating homelessness as a crime, etc, etc, etc.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Wlerin » Wed 14 Jun, 2017 22:22

Canaris wrote:Sweden has taken in 700,000 'refugees'. Overwhelmingly young men. Sweden is now the rape capital of the world. Violent crime has risen over 2,000 percent. Less than one percent of refugees have found jobs but they will all receive education and welfare. Sweden's expenses will be 9 times greater than their budget in 2017. Do you believe that is the fundamental purpose of government as well? I know you're not calling for mass immigration but I have to ask, "where does it end?" Sweden is having these problems because they determined, like you, that certain things were a right and that it was the purpose of government to provide welfare. Today, the Swedish government has said that Sweden belongs to the immigrants, not to Swedes. This is the cost of extensive state welfare which must necessarily be globalist in order to function. Once you open that door of legislating morality en masse, you can never close it. You have to forsake your own people in order to maintain the charade. I'm not just making things up here, this is historical. Anyone can read about it.

How's Norway doing?

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Bionic redhead » Thu 15 Jun, 2017 00:07

Canaris wrote:Sweden has taken in 700,000 'refugees'. Overwhelmingly young men. Sweden is now the rape capital of the world. Violent crime has risen over 2,000 percent. Less than one percent of refugees have found jobs but they will all receive education and welfare. Sweden's expenses will be 9 times greater than their budget in 2017. Do you believe that is the fundamental purpose of government as well? I know you're not calling for mass immigration but I have to ask, "where does it end?" Sweden is having these problems because they determined, like you, that certain things were a right and that it was the purpose of government to provide welfare. Today, the Swedish government has said that Sweden belongs to the immigrants, not to Swedes. This is the cost of extensive state welfare which must necessarily be globalist in order to function. Once you open that door of legislating morality en masse, you can never close it. You have to forsake your own people in order to maintain the charade. I'm not just making things up here, this is historical. Anyone can read about it.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... nd-sweden/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39056786

Also, according to http://countryeconomy.com/deficit/sweden Sweden ran a 0.9% budget deficit in 2016. I'm not sure where you got 9x greater.

It was also the former prime minister, not the government that said that sweden belonged to immigrants, not to swedes.

Please try to check facts before quoting Nigel Farage.

And the reason why the NHS is under such pressure is because successive conservative governments have done everything in their power to ruin the NHS so they can privatise it.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Canaris » Thu 15 Jun, 2017 00:56

Winchester, you seem to think I'm advocating for conservatism. I'm not. I'm not a conservative myself. I can't align with either party in the US political scene. You don't need to demonize a party when I'm already aware of it's evils. I don't believe that the Republican party is a good or even fair alternative to the Democrats. However, I believe very strongly that modern liberals in the US are tilting at windmills and attacking things that are, in the broad scheme of things, liable to do much more harm than good. The past eight years has not been kind to the Democrats as Bernie Sanders so bluntly pointed out recently.

What I personally believe is that the west is currently experiencing the Tocqueville effect in a big way.

Alexis de Tocqueville wrote:The hatred that men bear to privilege increases in proportion as privileges become fewer and less considerable, so that democratic passions would seem to burn most fiercely just when they have least fuel. I have already given the reason for this phenomenon. When all conditions are unequal, no inequality is so great as to offend the eye, whereas the slightest dissimilarity is odious in the midst of general uniformity; the more complete this uniformity is, the more insupportable the sight of such a difference becomes. Hence it is natural that the love of equality should constantly increase together with equality itself, and that it should grow by what it feeds on.


But essentially, my position can be distilled to: if an ideology requires tyranny over one party so another party benefits, it is not worthy of my support. That ideology is demonstrably evil. Welfare is not charity. You cannot take resources from me, at gunpoint, whether I agree to do it or not, and give them to a single mother and call this a charitable, good act. This is partly because two wrongs don't make a right but also because the single mother will no doubt continue to vote for you in order to attain resources when there are other means available (foremost, not replacing fathers with the state but that's another matter entirely).

This applies to just about any social program from Affirmative Action to No Child Left Behind and the subsidies to Planned Parenthood. There are means for the government to help the disadvantaged that do not require initiation of force but those are not in the best interests of elected officials.

Bionic redhead,

I didn't mean it would be over their national budget. It was 9 times greater than their budget for immigration. I didn't get this information from any quip or sound bite so I'll thank you not to assume. And so what if it was the former Prime Minister? Reinfeldt clearly believed it when he was in office and Sweden's current policies more than prove they're carrying that torch of self-immolation forward. It's not isolated to Sweden either, look at what is happening in France and Germany. With very little back pedaling. The Poles are right to restrict access to their nation, their own people are impoverished enough compared to the rest of the EU. You cannot tell me that because Germans were born in Germany they are privileged and must submit to a new protected class to their own detriment. That's insanity.

The NHS was always operating at a deficit. It's a government program. By definition it is drawing more resources than it recoups. Perhaps recent policies have bloated it but that does not change the fact it was never sustainable. It's budget has been outpacing both inflation and the new tax payers required to fund it since it's inception. This is a fact.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Whis » Thu 15 Jun, 2017 02:16

I am firmly in the state of mind that liberalism is an ideal where others pay for your decisions. If you want to go to college, the government will foot the bill. If you have sex an have a child and don't want to work to support it, the government will pay for it. Hell, if you have sex and get pregnant and don't want the child, the child pays with its life.
I challenge anyone to name any part of the liberal agenda that does not have someone else paying for it, either in monetary or other means.
The conservative libertarian agenda is about personal responsibility and less government. This is where the future lies if we are to succeed as a species.

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Re: Evergreen State College Insanity

Postby Winchester » Thu 15 Jun, 2017 02:29

Transgender bathroom rights.

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