June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Dr Rush » Mon 01 Sep, 2014 21:24

I had an idea ages ago that made DS support units rather than combat units.

Basically DS got a new drive type & tech that allowed them to create their own wormholes & take a percentage of their fleet credit mass with them. Once landed there would be a cooldown during which they would be unable to create a wormhole again for x amount of time. This period of time could be fixed or based on distance traveled.

To go with this a new tech would be created called "Wormhole Drive". 1 lvl of this tech would be required to build DS. It would also reduce the cooldown period by 5% per lvl. Optionally it could give the DS 1 lvl of JG for every lvl researched. Not sure on pricing but it should be high with a low softcap.

This would make DS useful for doing inter-cluster ninja ops. Something far more useful than breaking bases in my opinion.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby ltaylor » Tue 02 Sep, 2014 00:09

Grant Death Stars the ability to destroy any astro/base, remove it off of the map forever, with no way to generate new ones.
Grant it also the ability to do it from any distance, as long as you have the coordinates.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Virsteinn » Sun 07 Sep, 2014 23:15

It's been a long time since I last lurked these forums, much less posted something.

From my experience, the biggest gripe against Death Stars hasn't so much been about how expensive they are or how generally useless they are, but rather just how goddamn slow they fly. Coupled with how anything bigger and/or more powerful than a Frigate can generally derb it with ease, this has discouraged many a prospective cap-speccer from so much as building just one.

I'm all for Death Stars using Jump Gates, myself, though I'd much rather they receive the normal bonus to their speed. What I propose, instead, is a minimum Jump Gate level, perhaps 10 or higher. That way, those supporting the use of Death Stars will have to spend a considerable sum to be able to do so.

An armor bonus against Ion Bombers/Frigates, cap ships (Dreads and higher), other Death Stars, and Planetary Rings would also lend to its durability. Perhaps a 50% bonus against Ion Bombers/Frigates, a 25% bonus against cap ships and other Death Stars, and a 100% bonus against Planetary Rings would be good to start with.

If it doesn't receive an armor bonus, it should instead have the armor increased, though I'd think the bonus would lend more towards balance than a straight-up increase.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Hopefully, they'll be considered to be at least decent this time around, though I ain't counting on it.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Hasdrubal » Sat 13 Sep, 2014 15:09

Whis wrote:Yes I know there are many different FMRs about DS' including, but not limited to: use jump gates, become a mobile jump gate, produce fighters, etc.

Let's talk what can be done to make the Death Star better, especially with our new friend fleet maintenance.

You know the rules by now, now get to foruming!

This is what I think would improve game and make DS wanted or at least needed - each DS reduces fleet maintenance value for a small percentage/value or fixed value. Thus, if someone wants bigger fleets, he would need to have one, two or more DS to avoid hourly paying for fleet maintenance.

In present moment, DS is already faster than Leviathan if not using JGs. This would add new value to DS.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Virsteinn » Sun 14 Sep, 2014 09:04

See, the problem with that is that this property would then have to be added to every other ship that is built with space to carry IBs and lower. Thus why it'll make fighter swarms more legitimate as a game strategy in AE 2.0, and why it'll never be implemented into the game. That aside, this discussion wasn't meant for AE 2.0, but rather for the Death Star as a ship.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Dr Rush » Mon 15 Sep, 2014 21:47

Virsteinn wrote:See, the problem with that is that this property would then have to be added to every other ship that is built with space to carry IBs and lower.

Why?

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Wlerin » Mon 15 Sep, 2014 23:01

Dr Rush wrote:
Virsteinn wrote:See, the problem with that is that this property would then have to be added to every other ship that is built with space to carry IBs and lower.

Why?

Because Virsteinn said so. Case closed.

The naive reader might be led astray into thinking that Virsteinn's objection has nothing to do with the idea he's responding to, and in fact makes little-to-no sense, almost as though he completely misunderstood what Hasdrubal suggested. But that reader would of course be wrong.

Virsteinn wrote:That aside, this discussion wasn't meant for AE 2.0, but rather for the Death Star as a ship.

Whis wrote:Let's talk what can be done to make the Death Star better, especially with our new friend fleet maintenance.

You hear that Whis? None of this AE2.0 nonsense. This thread is just about the Death Star.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Hasdrubal » Tue 16 Sep, 2014 11:33

It looks like I need to elaborate what I suggested:

Without any calculation (didn't want to do it with actual formula) - let's say that someone has 5000 eco, which will give him 5 M fleet worth without maintenance. If someone wants to have, say 10 M fleet, and to avoid maintenance, he would buy one DS which would give him free of maintenance another, say, 5 M. So for one DS and 5000 eco, he would have free of maintenance 10 M instead of only 5 M.

If he has 2 DS, his free fleet maintenance value would increase to 15 M, with 3 DS to 20 M, and so on. Of course, if he lose a DS he will drop back to what his eco allows, but, one can have DS in air most of the time, or keep her secured in blob or whatever.

All numbers give above are just here for taking picture, not the real situation.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Virsteinn » Wed 17 Sep, 2014 10:04

Wlerin wrote:*snip*
I genuinely hope that ain't sarcasm on your part, butI've a gut feeling that says it is and, well, my gut is rarely mistaken. Given that, I'd like to explain my reasoning.

Currently, free fleet seems to be directly tied to your total econ, ignoring any maintenance penalties that one may be incurring as a result of going over that threshold. Probably the easiest way to allow Death Stars to increase free fleet would be to edit the formula to tie in total hangar space of all ships one may own, which would make any carrier ships add to free fleet. The only other way I can think of to allow Death Stars to add to free fleet would be to multiply the number of Death Stars by some factor of its hangar capacity.

Either way, this only helps the Death Star for AE 2.0 by giving it a bonus to free fleet. What about the older servers, where fleet maintenance isn't even a consideration? At that point, it loses any redeeming value it may have had before, and instead remains the local recycling center.

Therefore, while AE 2.0 isn't explicitly barred from this thread, it still shouldn't be its focus either. Going about this on that premise will get us nowhere.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Dr Rush » Wed 17 Sep, 2014 22:16

Why not; (existing free fleet formula) + (D*E)

Where D= # of DS you own, & E= the amount of fleet each DS adds.

This idea however is not really balance able in this form. If E is high enough to be relevant then it just negates fleet maintenance after DS become available. If E is lower then that DS remain worthless.

To obtain balance E needs to be a function where the benefit decreases with each DS you build.

However the whole idea still edges perilously close to X for the sake of X. More fleet for the sake of more fleet.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Wlerin » Wed 17 Sep, 2014 22:38

Virsteinn wrote:I genuinely hope that ain't sarcasm on your part, butI've a gut feeling that says it is and, well, my gut is rarely mistaken.

You can add this to the list of things your gut was right about. Congrats.

Virsteinn wrote:Currently, free fleet seems to be directly tied to your total econ, ignoring any maintenance penalties that one may be incurring as a result of going over that threshold. Probably the easiest way to allow Death Stars to increase free fleet would be to edit the formula to tie in total hangar space of all ships one may own, which would make any carrier ships add to free fleet. The only other way I can think of to allow Death Stars to add to free fleet would be to multiply the number of Death Stars by some factor of its hangar capacity.

What the bloody hell do hangar spaces have to do with this? Why would adding another unrelated quantity to the equation be the "easiest" way? I don't understand your thinking here at all.

Virsteinn wrote:Therefore, while AE 2.0 isn't explicitly barred from this thread, it still shouldn't be its focus either. Going about this on that premise will get us nowhere.

Not only is it not explicitly barred, it's explicitly in focus.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Virsteinn » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 07:58

Wlerin wrote:
Virsteinn wrote:I genuinely hope that ain't sarcasm on your part, butI've a gut feeling that says it is and, well, my gut is rarely mistaken.
You can add this to the list of things your gut was right about. Congrats.
Ok, now that's just plain not nice.

Wlerin wrote:What the bloody hell do hangar spaces have to do with this? Why would adding another unrelated quantity to the equation be the "easiest" way? I don't understand your thinking here at all.
That would be because you ain't considering the formula and how to implement this suggestion.

Wlerin wrote:Not only is it not explicitly barred, it's explicitly in focus.
No, it's not.

Will this suggestion help the Death Star as a ship in the older servers? Hell no. This suggestion will be just as useless there as the Death Star itself.

Will this suggestion help the Death Star for AE 2.0? My gut says hell no. Without any other bonuses, it'll likely remain ignored.

Therefore, consider what will help the Death Star for both the older servers and for AE 2.0, because that will change minds. Enough of this crap about how terrible anything I say is. That does nothing.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Wlerin » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:23

Virsteinn wrote:
Wlerin wrote:
Virsteinn wrote:I genuinely hope that ain't sarcasm on your part, butI've a gut feeling that says it is and, well, my gut is rarely mistaken.
You can add this to the list of things your gut was right about. Congrats.
Ok, now that's just plain not nice.

Welcome back to FR.

Virsteinn wrote:That would be because you ain't considering the formula and how to implement this suggestion.

Wlerin wrote:Not only is it not explicitly barred, it's explicitly in focus.
No, it's not.

Wlerin wrote:Because Virsteinn said so. Case closed.


Virsteinn wrote:Will this suggestion help the Death Star for AE 2.0? My gut says hell no. Without any other bonuses, it'll likely remain ignored.

You may be correct. So far you have failed to provide convincing nor even coherent evidence, however.

Virsteinn wrote:Therefore, consider what will help the Death Star for both the older servers and for AE 2.0, because that will change minds.

Only need to change one mind, and that mind is focused on AE 2.0.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Virsteinn » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 18:26

I would think the evidence is my own opinion. Especially given that many people feel the same way as I do. They wouldn't give a cow chip whether a Death Star helped with free fleet if it still weren't combat effective and/or couldn't use Jump Gates.

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Re: June 2014 FMR review - everything death star

Postby Wlerin » Thu 18 Sep, 2014 19:36

Sorry, but you'll need a bit more than your opinion to demonstrate e.g. that screwing around with hangar spaces is the best way to give Death Stars a maintenance reduction, as opposed to, you know, just doing it directly like a sane person.

The idea of a ship that reduces fleet maintenance (esp. one that is expensive and relatively vulnerable) is not inherently bad (at least, any more than any other idea to "fix" death stars, or even than fleet maintenance itself), but rather its worth depends on how exactly it accomplishes that goal.


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