20's Crash the 30's and Pax move to backstab!

[Alecto]

I think your definition of "back stab" is very narrow. I think the situation does describe an act of back stabbing.

Telling someone you are DNH, then attacking them whilst they are focusing on something other than you (i.e. on an op in the 30s) pretty well sums up a back stab.

Also, why would we have to lose fleet in the Pax/RAGE war? All we had was a DNH, Do Not Hit... No offer nor guarantee of sending fleet.

[Addex]

I think your definition of "back stab" is very narrow. I think the situation does describe an act of back stabbing.

Telling someone you are DNH, then attacking them whilst they are focusing on something other than you (i.e. on an op in the 30s) pretty well sums up a back stab.

Also, why would we have to lose fleet in the Pax/RAGE war? All we had was a DNH, Do Not Hit... No offer nor guarantee of sending fleet.

Well if all you had was a DNH and there was no agreement for cancellation notice why complain? Nothing wrong was done and all the complaining is for nothing or you think DNHs are meant to be for eternity and cant be dropped? If you wanna be technical u had no agreement with Rage and Pax is now mostly Rage, just that the guild name didnt change doesnt mean anything.

[Alecto]

We had an agreement with Pax, if new members don't have to follow pacts, what is the point in anyone having pacts....

As for nothing wrong with what you guys did... well, whether you think that or not, it still justifies the description of a back stab, as it still offers a false sense of security when Pax had every intention of not honoring it.

I know neither GMs received any cancellation of the pact, just the breaking of one.

[DarkHorse]

Addex - if you have any kind of pact with somebody and you attack - its backstab. not first - not last time on AE.

you all missed one important thing while talking about Bravo history and 20s - 00s relation. where is a guy from 20s who promised to help original Pax?

that guy had no idea what his own team mates think about our position in 20s and what should we do about situation in 00s.

our policy from start was - we dont want another "Addex - anti Addex" server. i think majority will agree about that. i know how that looks from outside - let them fight each other while we are doing our own thing - but we truly wanted to stay away from old drama.

another reason for staying outside 00s internal conflict was trying not to kill server. what would happen if 20s decided to go against Pax ? we would see crying on forum from another side.
on other hand - IF Sith for instance decided to really help you - you think teens would watch that without doing anything? another factor in that scenario was that 20s had their own issues - you wouldnt get help from whole cluster for sure. my opinion is that Sith helped you by not helping you.

20s have honorable people in LS - in games like this sometimes you need to pay price for that but we are cool with it.

[Addex]

We had an agreement with Pax, if new members don't have to follow pacts, what is the point in anyone having pacts....

As for nothing wrong with what you guys did... well, whether you think that or not, it still justifies the description of a back stab, as it still offers a false sense of security when Pax had every intention of not honoring it.

I know neither GMs received any cancellation of the pact, just the breaking of one.

I believe someone said a msg was sent to your GM no clue how long before bases were hit or anything since I'm major inacto but if something was said at any time then is all good since there was no agreement for cancellation notice.

Perun here said that if you only intended to pick up your pile and leave the 30s Pax would also leave 20s, so obv your intention is to farm the 30s into quitting which will be in detriment of the server and Pax/Rage decided to stop you by hitting you. With the massive advantage Pax has they could have simply stolen the pile and derb your fleets then hit 30s which tbh is what most people would have done.

So at least that.

[Alecto]

We had an agreement with Pax, if new members don't have to follow pacts, what is the point in anyone having pacts....

As for nothing wrong with what you guys did... well, whether you think that or not, it still justifies the description of a back stab, as it still offers a false sense of security when Pax had every intention of not honoring it.

I know neither GMs received any cancellation of the pact, just the breaking of one.

I believe someone said a msg was sent to your GM no clue how long before bases were hit or anything since I'm major inacto but if something was said at any time then is all good since there was no agreement for cancellation notice.

Perun here said that if you only intended to pick up your pile and leave the 30s Pax would also leave 20s, so obv your intention is to farm the 30s into quitting which will be in detriment of the server and Pax/Rage decided to stop you by hitting you. With the massive advantage Pax has they could have simply stolen the pile and derb your fleets then hit 30s which tbh is what most people would have done.

So at least that.

Well, that's not true. The 20s already returned and offered the 30s a recovery deal. We spent most of our fleet in the 30s and Pax has too much for us to contest and are currently working their way up. We've been in the 20s for a few days now. If that were true, Pax wouldn't have asked Outz to move on the 20s too.

Though I can guarantee no PM was sent to the GMs of Sith/DAMN.

I know you're not calling the shots, just saying things how you see them, but I don't see what is being said by some as accurate.

[Addex]

We had an agreement with Pax, if new members don't have to follow pacts, what is the point in anyone having pacts....

As for nothing wrong with what you guys did... well, whether you think that or not, it still justifies the description of a back stab, as it still offers a false sense of security when Pax had every intention of not honoring it.

I know neither GMs received any cancellation of the pact, just the breaking of one.

I believe someone said a msg was sent to your GM no clue how long before bases were hit or anything since I'm major inacto but if something was said at any time then is all good since there was no agreement for cancellation notice.

Perun here said that if you only intended to pick up your pile and leave the 30s Pax would also leave 20s, so obv your intention is to farm the 30s into quitting which will be in detriment of the server and Pax/Rage decided to stop you by hitting you. With the massive advantage Pax has they could have simply stolen the pile and derb your fleets then hit 30s which tbh is what most people would have done.

So at least that.

Well, that's not true. The 20s already returned and offered the 30s a recovery deal. We spent most of our fleet in the 30s and Pax has too much for us to contest and are currently working their way up. We've been in the 20s for a few days now. If that were true, Pax wouldn't have asked Outz to move on the 20s too.

Though I can guarantee no PM was sent to the GMs of Sith/DAMN.

I know you're not calling the shots, just saying things how you see them, but I don't see what is being said by some as accurate.

My posts on both events discussed here are simply my points of view, on the "Sith/Danm help the lowers story" I have first hand knowledge and I describe things as I saw at that point in time, ofc Kiwi can disagree and you can disagree. I simply stated how we in Pax leadership felt about the 20s help.

On the 20s invasion I simply go by what is being said here in forums since I had 0 involvement in the decision and tbh I dont know why 10s weren't invaded instead since we had an extremely dislike of LOPT, something must have changed but as I said Im inacto and totally not care.

From the Original Pax leadership I'm pretty sure just Balor plays/cares. From the Rage side I see a lot of people in LS so they must have some interest in this boring server, most of the people I brought in for Bravo already quit/went inacto cause the AE2.0 is garbage.

[Alecto]

I think we can agree that there's more RAGE influence in Pax now and perhaps this decision.

Perhaps this is RAGE winning the war on the lowers and now targeting those (whether you agree or not) who were deemed to be on "Pax's team".

[Addex]

Could be, is what I would do if I was Rage since I wouldnt owe anything to neither Sith/Danm. In any case like Perun said they said they only farming and leaving and not dmging the economy greatly so is a change from previous server that someone goes and farms for profit and leaves instead of spending a month in their cluster until they all quit.

[FrostyGoblin]

Wait, you mean there was a DNH without a cancelation notice? What the *beep*?

Do you even actually diplo?

That's basically the same thing as having no DNH at all....

[Karsus]

Wait, you mean there was a DNH without a cancelation notice? What the *beep*?

Do you even actually diplo?

That's basically the same thing as having no DNH at all....

[Alecto]

I couldn't possibly comment, I wasn't involved in the negotiation stage.

That being said, offering a DNH under any circumstance, and attacking without cancellation at all (not even a 1, 2 or 3 minutes warning) is still a breach of a pact.

I agree its silly not to have a cancellation period, but it's still an underhanded tactic.

[FrostyGoblin]

I couldn't possibly comment, I wasn't involved in the negotiation stage.

That being said, offering a DNH under any circumstance, and attacking without cancellation at all (not even a 1, 2 or 3 minutes warning) is still a breach of a pact.

I agree its silly not to have a cancellation period, but it's still an underhanded tactic.

But he never violated the terms of agreement...

Why are you even complaining about that...

[Alecto]

Sounds like someone who hasn't read the thread -.-

Most of my complaints have been about the misinformation, not about them invading the 20s. I've said many times that I can see why they came to the 20s, it made tactical sense since Sith/DAMN were/are the only force large enough to compete with them.

However, I will say if two parties agree to a Do Not Hit, and one party hits the other, that is a violation of the pact. If no end date or cancellation period was agreed, and no one cancelled the pact, then it is still a violation. Hitting the other party isn't an acceptable form of cancellation, when the pact is to prevent that explicit action, it is a breach - someone arguing against that is an utter idiot.

The pact was broken when they made plans to invade the 20s whilst the DNH was in place. They used the false premise of a pact as a tactical advantage. It was not cancelled, and therefore is a breach.

[toxa]

Why do yo you call this a backstab anyway? Backstab is when you betray someone that is trying to help you, if you were blobbing with Pax and they raped you it would be a backstab, if you were fighting with someone Pax said that they come to help you and then they go and rape you that is a backstab.

Pax going to hit Sith and leaving DANM alone is not a backstab in any way or form, but I guess is easier to put it that way. To be honest there was no agreement on cancellation notice for the pact, they could even hit DANM if they wanted to since the pact was done that way and for what I see here there is nothing against DANM.

I understand the frustration in being hit in a war game especially when you are having fun farming a guild that doesn't have the fleet to defend themselves but lets call things how they are.

PS:

You can say I dont tell the truth, but please tell me how much actual fleet of Danm or Sith was lost helping Pax in the 00s war, LOPT actually helped rage with real fleets and numbers while we got nothing but good intentions for which Pax was grateful to DANM. We can go back and forth saying "no u" but the numbers speak for themselves, the actual help from Sith/Danm was 0.

It is a back stab simple, you waited until you had an advantage, you made a plan to attack us and you launched against the 20's all the while you agreed not do make an aggressive move on us. The moment you were planning to attack us, you were making an aggressive move against the 20's and violating that pact. You drop the pact then you plan to attack not the other way around regardless of terms. The whole point of what a back stab is going behind our back and plannng to harm us when we are in an agreement not to.

You can try and wipe your hands of this as much as you want Addex but by defending the actions from Pax, you are still showing your true colours that you believe it is acceptable to plan and move to attack the enemy while you have an agreement. A pact with you or Balor is completely worthless.

I will say it again, *beep* in the past is irrelevant Sith never agreed to save your *beep* and DAMN moved to the best of its abilities to support your guild. You asked for support from DAMN and you got it as soon as possible, there was a delay as I was already committed to action (I don't take my commitments lightly or drop them because you say so) and to be honest DAMN had more problems this server then you guys did we were in recovery mode ourselves as well as being targeted. But I didn't see you abandoning your fight to help DAMN. Just a bunch of two face losers that don't care about anybody else or your word.