Basic guide to fleet specs

Read and comment on our tutorials and user guides here.

Moderator: Support Moderators

User avatar
Wlerin
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 19482
Joined: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 23:35
Reputation: 589
Guild: L:[USSV]
P:[AKB48]
A2:[(-o-)]
Location: Gondolin

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Wlerin » Sat 06 Nov, 2010 00:22

Mattzo wrote:Oh, and planning your fleet on how it would get it is stupid too.

Oh is it? Which fleet are the levi stackers going to target first in a blob crash, the ft + ca or the ft + fc, or for that matter the ft + fc + bs? It is more cautious yes, not stupid. No, of course you can't prevent your fleet from being attacked, and attack profitably. But you can make it less of a juicy target.

To a point.

Mixing every defense from barracks to photon makes bases VERY unappetizing in the beginning of the game. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. Still, there is room for planning against certain very common, highly profitable scenarios, levi rape and ft swarms being the most obvious.

If you choose to ignore such precautions, very well. You'll dominate the charts right up to the point you make a mistake.

User avatar
Mattzo
Volunteer
Volunteer
Posts: 4734
Joined: Mon 03 Nov, 2008 19:15
Reputation: 73
Guild: -Min-
Galaxy: Alpha
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Mattzo » Sat 06 Nov, 2010 10:24

If I'm offline, it doesn't matter what units I have, I will get shot. So building certain units because it'll give the person shooting you slightly worse ratios doesn't make sense when you could use those credits for something that's going to benefit you.

I won't build my fleet around how it might get shot, because if it's going to get shot it'll be for profitable ratios anyway.

Tyrant. You're not supposed to pay so much attention to Bruskie's morale ambivalence... you are supposed to be the grounded one!
User avatar
Nagel
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 9421
Joined: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 22:46
Reputation: 402
Galaxy: Alpha

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Nagel » Sat 06 Nov, 2010 15:36

Wlerin wrote:Apples and Oranges. Leviathans add survivability to your fighters.

Heavy Cruisers...hrmm... alright, I'll grant that. There is no difference in intent between adding HC and adding DE, FR, or CR, at least from what Judicator wrote. HC/BS are commonly used to defend against Levi rape, but that is not the reason the OP gives.


I was adding possible units which you could add to Dual spec, which is in option at some point. Again, your options vary on your carry unit.

Wlerin wrote:You know, I was following you up to this. 100 million mobile? There are a little over 100 players, total, across *all* servers, capable of fielding a 100 million mobile. I highly doubt any of those players need this advice, nor are the vast majority of players reading this guide going to need it anytime soon. Therefore bringing this into consideration, except in an appendix, is counterproductive.


Guides are about imparting knowledge, and giving people the know how they need to fend for them selves. At some point those people with 100mil mobiles would have read a guide, and anyone playing now should be aiming to do the same.

Again all I was aiming to do was argue that people should be given all the information. If someone was building a Fighter specification, and was looking to dual specification at some point, then telling them to do so with Fleet Carriers and not Carriers would remove their ability to have a fast dual spec mobile later on.

Wlerin wrote:Right. Because Frigates and Cruisers are so close to Carriers/FC in efficiency.


Of course they are not, but you are considering dual specification routes at this point, which means you need to consider what will compliment you original specification the most. Frigates having hangers, boosts your hanger capacity, so whilst adding a Dual spec unit, you are boosting your original spec.

Wlerin wrote:Why? What do you need to complement it for, at that size? Unless there's no one with a larger fleet, in which case, again, this is not important for the kinds of players reading this guide, or asking this question.


Simple, to add to your possible targets. This is a game about killing and shooting things, and enhancing your possibility's makes sense. Up until a certain point you should only build a one specification mobile, but at some point carrying on building Fighters becomes a grind. Adding a dual specification not only makes sense, it is more fun.

Again, I am not saying my route is the only one or that I am completely right. I am just saying if you are going to write a guide with the intention of giving everyone advice and guidance, you should do your best to impart as much knowledge as possible.

SHLD GM

Qµeen Bruskie wrote:I was hoping you'd have enough sense to not be a retard. Too much credit I suppose.
User avatar
xJudicatorx
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2880
Joined: Tue 14 Apr, 2009 21:11
Reputation: 107

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby xJudicatorx » Sat 06 Nov, 2010 18:14

Wow, this got really busy. I'll try to reply to each major point that was brought up, but if I did not, please feel free to remind me.

@Adding Levis to fighter spec: As noted, this is only for insanely large fleet vs fleet attacks where the 5% armor bonus will save you at least 40K fighters. At a very high level, you should keep 1 or 2 around just in case the opportunity comes up.

@Adding anything else to fighter spec: We seem to agree on the reasoning for adding units in - making you able to hit targets you ordinarily would not have been able to. However, I chose HC instead of CR. If you want DE or FR to combat HC's, you really should just go FT/HB spec anyway. The difference between HC and CR is that HC break capital shields while CR do not and can shield rape occupation spawns. CR do not add enough value, in my opinion, to justify the fighters that you could have had instead. Also, you said several times "once you reach 10 million fighters" as if that is when you should get bored with fighters and start rainbowing up. The more of a specced fleet you have, the less you need to add other units to it because you reach the point where you can swarm anything.

@CA vs FC: FC are better. If they are only a little bit better, that doesn't change the fact that they are still better. If a new unit was added that was exactly the same as a fighter but it had base armor 2.1 instead of 2, it would only be a little bit better, but I would still tell you to use it instead of fighters. Wlerin listed most of the points FC have over CA so I won't repeat them.

@: Guide target: The basic specs listed here are indeed applicable at any point of the game. Guilded or unguilded, brand new or playing since day 1. Where I've added optional units to make other targets possible or to protect against shield rapes, it is where a little bit of fleet can make a large difference. A lot of research, number crunching, and personal experience went into every decision I posted(for example, look at the frigate/bomber discussion earlier). I simply did not want to overwhelm readers by posting a page long justification for every single decision.

@Reactionary planning: I included units which protect against snipers and small shield rapes, but not actual equal fleet attacks. For instance, the other day Alicus snuck 3 or 4 dreadnoughts onto a blob and killed 2 million fleet. And people just love to send corvettes to attack recyclers on a blob. You don't want to plan your entire spec on how it will react to a specific attack because then you are just making it vulnerable to something else. However, these are cases that are common and easy to avoid.

I've seen a rich man beg; I've seen a good man sin; I've seen a tough man cry.
I've sen a loser win and a sad man grin; I've heard an honest man lie.
Mostly Harmless AE page on facebook
User avatar
Wlerin
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 19482
Joined: Mon 08 Dec, 2008 23:35
Reputation: 589
Guild: L:[USSV]
P:[AKB48]
A2:[(-o-)]
Location: Gondolin

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Wlerin » Sat 06 Nov, 2010 20:09

Nagel wrote:
Wlerin wrote:You know, I was following you up to this. 100 million mobile? There are a little over 100 players, total, across *all* servers, capable of fielding a 100 million mobile. I highly doubt any of those players need this advice, nor are the vast majority of players reading this guide going to need it anytime soon. Therefore bringing this into consideration, except in an appendix, is counterproductive.


Guides are about imparting knowledge, and giving people the know how they need to fend for them selves. At some point those people with 100mil mobiles would have read a guide, and anyone playing now should be aiming to do the same.

Again all I was aiming to do was argue that people should be given all the information. If someone was building a Fighter specification, and was looking to dual specification at some point, then telling them to do so with Fleet Carriers and not Carriers would remove their ability to have a fast dual spec mobile later on.

Do you learn about Calculus in 5th grade math? I didn't think so. As to people aiming to do the same, look at the rankings. The only server where 100 mil mobiles could be called "common" in even the most strained sense of the word (i.e. more than 50 players) is Ceti. Players on other servers use their fleet far too often to maintain such a large mobile. And because they use it, they need to replace it, not waste prod on a flotilla of support ships that are supposed to be provided by guildmates anyway.

Besides that, another conclusion follows from the dearth of such outrageously large mobiles. If 100 mil mobiles do become more common, then your entire argument becomes invalid, because single-speccers will again be dominant. In other words, it is only players whose fleet is far in excess of the majority who should even think about dual-speccing. And even then.

Nagel wrote:
Wlerin wrote:Right. Because Frigates and Cruisers are so close to Carriers/FC in efficiency.


Of course they are not, but you are considering dual specification routes at this point, which means you need to consider what will compliment you original specification the most. Frigates having hangers, boosts your hanger capacity, so whilst adding a Dual spec unit, you are boosting your original spec.

No, again, we are really not.

nagel wrote:
Wlerin wrote:Why? What do you need to complement it for, at that size? Unless there's no one with a larger fleet, in which case, again, this is not important for the kinds of players reading this guide, or asking this question.

Simple, to add to your possible targets. This is a game about killing and shooting things, and enhancing your possibility's makes sense. Up until a certain point you should only build a one specification mobile, but at some point carrying on building Fighters becomes a grind. Adding a dual specification not only makes sense, it is more fun.

Even if that were true, it's still no reason to add it to the guide. If someone wants to dual-spec, then dual-spec. Take advice from two different specializations. There's no need to change either specialization as-written.

Nagel wrote:Again, I am not saying my route is the only one or that I am completely right. I am just saying if you are going to write a guide with the intention of giving everyone advice and guidance, you should do your best to impart as much knowledge as possible.

Why? It is better to impart the best knowledge available, and leave them to find their own personal preferences. Providing a flood of options, is, once again, counterproductive given the goal of this guide.

Yes, okay, Judicator did list some options. That doesn't mean he should have listed *every* option.

User avatar
Nagel
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 9421
Joined: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 22:46
Reputation: 402
Galaxy: Alpha

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Nagel » Sat 06 Nov, 2010 22:30

Seen as we are going round in circles, I will just agree to disagree and move on.

SHLD GM

Qµeen Bruskie wrote:I was hoping you'd have enough sense to not be a retard. Too much credit I suppose.
User avatar
scyther
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 00:26
Reputation: 14
Guild: F:PIMP/RAVE
G:POKE
Galaxy: Gamma

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby scyther » Sun 07 Nov, 2010 02:17

Mattzo wrote:If I'm offline, it doesn't matter what units I have, I will get shot. So building certain units because it'll give the person shooting you slightly worse ratios doesn't make sense when you could use those credits for something that's going to benefit you.

I won't build my fleet around how it might get shot, because if it's going to get shot it'll be for profitable ratios anyway.


Assuming your online, FCs still are much better. If im sitting on a pile with JUST fcs/recs, someone cannot ft rape my fleet FC and i can shieldrape vettes/de coming to suicide on my recs.

Nagel wrote:Seen as we are going round in circles, I will just agree to disagree and move on.


ie, wlerin and judicator just outwitted you and cant find any intelligent responses.

Also Nagel said that at some point there is no use of getting a bigger ft stack or that dual spec is better, thats never correct (excepting some levis for the 5% boost).

A bigger ft stack allows you to one shot bigger cr fleets, and bigger frigate fleets instead of 2 or three shootting them, and 1 shot more of them. Also crashes almost always run low on FT drops, so your ft will never be wasted.

Ex Poke missing the tall grass.
User avatar
Nagel
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 9421
Joined: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 22:46
Reputation: 402
Galaxy: Alpha

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Nagel » Tue 09 Nov, 2010 01:07

Awful troll is awful

SHLD GM

Qµeen Bruskie wrote:I was hoping you'd have enough sense to not be a retard. Too much credit I suppose.
User avatar
scyther
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 00:26
Reputation: 14
Guild: F:PIMP/RAVE
G:POKE
Galaxy: Gamma

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby scyther » Tue 09 Nov, 2010 07:13

I wasnt trolling....

u mad? :paranoid:

Ex Poke missing the tall grass.
User avatar
xJudicatorx
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2880
Joined: Tue 14 Apr, 2009 21:11
Reputation: 107

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby xJudicatorx » Sun 14 Nov, 2010 10:35

Finally got the extra info on all basic specs finished; didn't really want to work that hard but I felt that it should be done before the new server opens up.

I've seen a rich man beg; I've seen a good man sin; I've seen a tough man cry.
I've sen a loser win and a sad man grin; I've heard an honest man lie.
Mostly Harmless AE page on facebook
User avatar
scyther
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 888
Joined: Fri 03 Apr, 2009 00:26
Reputation: 14
Guild: F:PIMP/RAVE
G:POKE
Galaxy: Gamma

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby scyther » Mon 15 Nov, 2010 11:34

Very nicely done! :clap:


Frigates/Cruisers - Share all the same weaknesses as fighters, these will dilute your fleet for no gain


A couple hundred to a thousand cr are really nice since they buffet a ft drop against your recs amazingly, otherwise agreed.

also CON for ft fleet
Levis can do everything except ft drops on hc+ better

for a meat hc fleet, i think your way to ft heavy, if you have de/ce theres no need for all those fts. id go with something more like this

fighters 24800
corvette 3000
destroyer 1500
heavycruiser 1002
fleetcarrier 42

The alternate 1M Heavy Cruiser Fleet:
2500 Corvettes (50K)
5K Recyclers (150K)
1.6K Heavy Cruisers (800K)


even with the hc raping fleet, its nice to keep the fts there in case you want to make a hit or two against a cap stack. Like Reborn did a couple days ago on gamma.

If your blob crashing, just send the fts with your Hc's and use them as meat incase you get hit by a small stack, or want to smash a single smaller cap stack.

2.5k Vettes excessive, you dont need that much rec coverage, as your vette/rec mix is already VERY profitable to an ft drop (1:4 rates)... 1k vettes would do the job well enough.

Ex Poke missing the tall grass.
User avatar
xJudicatorx
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2880
Joined: Tue 14 Apr, 2009 21:11
Reputation: 107

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby xJudicatorx » Sat 20 Nov, 2010 08:03

scyther wrote:also CON for ft fleet
Levis can do everything except ft drops on hc+ better

You're forgetting taking out bases - particularly the ones with about 500K rainbow mobile and 15 rings on them.

for a meat hc fleet, i think your way to ft heavy, if you have de/ce theres no need for all those fts. id go with something more like this

fighters 24800
corvette 3000
destroyer 1500
heavycruiser 1002
fleetcarrier 42

I still disagree on you about the fighters(for the same reason as earlier with the CR spec). I do understand why you feel that way, I just always find myself wishing I had more fighters for a drop with CR/HC fleets.


even with the hc raping fleet, its nice to keep the fts there in case you want to make a hit or two against a cap stack. Like Reborn did a couple days ago on gamma.

Generally, I would recommend switching to a meat HC stack around the time large blob crashes start happening. By then you have enough HC's to rape any bases made profitable by large amounts of fighters anyway and it is indeed good to be able to hit up or down the rock/scissors/paper system.
2.5k Vettes excessive, you dont need that much rec coverage, as your vette/rec mix is already VERY profitable to an ft drop (1:4 rates)... 1k vettes would do the job well enough.

I may change this, I've just always had a fondness for vettes.

I've seen a rich man beg; I've seen a good man sin; I've seen a tough man cry.
I've sen a loser win and a sad man grin; I've heard an honest man lie.
Mostly Harmless AE page on facebook
bizmiard
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat 29 Aug, 2009 23:55
Reputation: 1

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby bizmiard » Tue 01 Feb, 2011 17:48

ok.. judi asked me to post this, so here goes.

this is the math for why it is better NOT to build CV and DT meat as compared to building the CV and DT.
any questions you, have at it and ill answer best as possible :)

BASIC PREMISE

the basic premise is that as you get more and more HC, you need more and more CV/DT to go along with it. this results in an overall reduction in HC, and allows for less total damage when it comes to a big hit. ok?

LOGIC PART ONE
now, assume you have:

250k FT
30k CV
15k DT
10k HC

and you go to hit a target- say 10 levis. im going to use standard even techs for the attack.

Total cost of units destroyed: 2408630 ( Attacker: 408630 ; Defender: 2000000 )

You are left with

241074 FT
25537 CV
12769 DT
9629 HC

on the flipside, assume you have:

290k FT
12k
(obviously, the excess cost of the CV and DT was distributed over the FT and HC, giving a higher net of HC and FT)

now you hit the same target- 10 levis. same standard techs.

Total cost of units destroyed: 2460770 ( Attacker: 460770 ; Defender: 2000000 )

You are left with

272146 FT
11257 HC

LOGIC PART ONE RESULT

As you can see, having no CV and DT cost 52140 credits more.

LOGIC PART TWO

Now for part two. You have garnered profit in the form of derbs from your hit-
For the with meat hit, there is 1445178 derbs
For the no meat hit, there is 1476462 derbs

I ask you to take not that there are slightly more derbs in the no meat hit, due to the attacker losing a little more fleet. To be exact, there 31284 derbs more in the pile with no meat. From the previous result that showed using no CV/DT cost 52140 creds more, we need to subtract the 31284, since obviously losing that little extra fleet netted a some more derbs.

LOGIC PART TWO RESULT

This reduces the extra losses to 21126.

LOGIC PART THREE

Now for the crux of the matter. You have made your hit, made the derbs, and now want to use all thsoe spare creds lying around to put back into fleet. Assume you have 3 mil derbs to spare.

FOR THE WITH MEAT:
You started with 10k HC, 15k DT, 30k CV, and 250k FT, and would like to keep the same ratio. First you need to get your slighlty depleted fleet back to the original values- which requires 371 HC, 2231 DT, 4463 CV, and 8926 FT This all costs a total of 408630 (the amount you lost on the hit, obviously)
Now, you have 2591370 credits left to spend on making your fleet bigger. But, in order to keep your meat intact, you must build in the ratio of 50 HC to 6 CV to 3 DT to 2 HC.
After some arithmatic, you can build 86950 FT, 10434 CV, 5217 DT, 3478 HC with your remaining 2591370 credits.

This puts your total fleet at:

336950 FT
40434 CV
20217 DT
13478 HC

FOR THE NO MEAT:
You started with 12k HC and 290k FT, and would like to keep the same ratio. same process as above- first get fleet back to original- which will take 743 HC and 17854 FT, which will in turn cost 460770 (as above, its the amount you lost)
now lets add in PART TWO *Using the math in PART TWO, we know that we have an extra 31284 derbs compared to the fleet with no meat. this leaves us with 3031284 creds to spend on more fleet.*
Subtracting the amount we need to build extra, we have 2570514 creds to spend. To keep the ratio intact, we build in a ratio of 12 HC to 290 FT.
Again some arithmatic, and we find that we may build 4140 HC and 100050 FT with the remaining 2570514 creds.

This puts the total fleet at:

390050 FT
16140 HC

LOGIC PART THREE RESULT

After all is said and done, we have a fleet of:

336950 FT
40434 CV
20217 DT
13478 HC

compared to a fleet of:

390050 FT
16140 HC

CONCLUSION

Through analyzing the trends of both fleets, we can clearly see that over a prolonged period of time the fleet with no CV and DT meat will prove itself far superior. In addition, it will ultimately have much more total attacking power, as the CV and DT units in the first fleet do MINIMAL damage.

Therefore, it is *less profitable* to build CV and DT meat, even while it does give a better ratio short term.

------------------------------------------------

Thanks for reading :)
BIZ


edit**some bbcode didnt transfer from ingame to forum

ahhh... we meet again..
User avatar
Nagel
Addicted Member
Addicted Member
Posts: 9421
Joined: Sat 12 Jan, 2008 22:46
Reputation: 402
Galaxy: Alpha

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby Nagel » Wed 02 Feb, 2011 01:16

Nice read.

It should be pointed out, the difference becomes far more apparent in a Cr/Ft fleet as well. Cruisers can hit mobiles that still have fodder cover, but you can only do so with Cr/Ft. Therefore investing as much into those two units, and not wasting prod and credits on Bo/Cv/De is essential.

SHLD GM

Qµeen Bruskie wrote:I was hoping you'd have enough sense to not be a retard. Too much credit I suppose.
bizmiard
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat 29 Aug, 2009 23:55
Reputation: 1

Re: Basic guide to fleet specs

Postby bizmiard » Wed 02 Feb, 2011 01:18

Ty :)

And yes, you are correct. The same principle i applied in the above example could and should be applied to:

CR
HC
BS

and god help you if you are building CV/DT with this, but.. FR

ahhh... we meet again..

Return to “Tutorials & Guides”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests