Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

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Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby xJudicatorx » Sat 27 Nov, 2010 05:46

The purpose of this guide is to show players the difference between good players and bad ones. It is not a matter of skill or effort as there are skilled players who put a lot of effort into being a farm and there are worthless players who barely check in on the game and stay in the top 200 without even trying. The first step to becoming better is learning just how much you still need to improve and how easy it can be.

This guide will be laid out in the following style
Topic:
Farm view:
Farmer view:
Summary:
And now on to the good stuff!

E-hono(u)r
Farm view: Most poor players seem to feel that any time they are attacked it is dishonorable. Taking trades, stealing debris, killing outpost ships - they seem to think that these are acts of war when they absolutely are not.
Farmer view: Most good players in this game truly do have a sense of honor - they will keep their word on pacts, pay people back who they had to borrow from, follow through on promises. But they aren't hindered by other people's silly rules.
Summary: Being honorable is not the same thing as being nice. People respect someone honorable and they walk all over someone who won't fight back because of "unwritten" rules. For more information on this, I highly recommend this read: Dave Sirlin's "Playing to Win"

Bases
Farm view: I will take one astro for research, one just for economy, one for production, and WOW! that one looks cool!
Farmer view: There is a determinable best base - and I want each of my bases to be one of those. If I can't get the best type, I'll settle for second best.
Summary: Choosing bases is important because you can get better results out of the same amount of credits. this ties into Fleet and Economy very closely.

Fleet
Farm view: Fleet is really cool and I'll get some whenever I'm not busy doing something else.
Farmer view: Fleet is the best route to increasing my credits and defending my bases, so I'll make as much of it as possible as quickly as possible.
Summary: There is no point to increasing capacity if you aren't always producing fleet - no point to increasing your economy if you won't be spending it on fleet. Fleet is the be all and end all in this game, so get a lot of it.

Defenses
Farm view: If I'm unprofitable, no one will bother to hit me so I'd better spend most of my money on that.
Farmer view: I wish someone would attack me so I could find their fleet and derb it.
Summary: Defenses are handy for when you're offline or just don't want to bother watching your scanners, but mostly aren't necessary if your fleet is around. As long as you have enough that no one can sneak up on you, you can spend those credits on other things.

Economy
Farm view: I'd better keep my economy low or someone will attack my base.
Farmer view: If I have lots of economy, I'll have more credits to build fleet with and even if someone hits my base, I'll still have more than I would have had if I'd kept it low.
Summary: A strong economy powers a strong empire. If you are keeping it low in order to avoid being profitable, you are hurting yourself more than anyone else.

Fleet specs
Farm view: I'll need a little bit of everything so that I can face every threat.
Farmer view: I'll get outstanding ratios with this spec and I have guildmates to cover my weaknesses.
Summary: The more different types of fleet you have, the weaker each of them will be. If you spread yourself to thin, instead of being able to face any threat, you won't have enough of any particular thing to do the job right.

Map location
Farm view: If I put all of my bases in the same system or region, they'll all be able to support each other easily.
Farmer view: Each base is worth another region I have scanners on and if I get attacked, it will take work to find all of my bases.
Summary: Your bases can't support each other if they all get occed within 30 minutes of each other. Spread them out enough that you get good scanner coverage but not so much that you can't get there quickly from a good jumpgate.

Level protection
Farm view: As long as I stay below level X, noone can attack me.
Farmer view: I'll get as high level as I can and other people can worry about being protected from ME.
Summary: While there is a point to staying below level 30 until rings are up if you are starting a year late, it's not necessary when you start on a level playing field. You'll be higher level by getting level 40 and being perma-occed than you are by staying level 29 for months.

Game experience
Farm view: I've played Alpha/Beta/some other awesome server since forever. Therefore, I MUST know more about the game than anyone else.
Farmer view: I'd better learn all I can about the game as it is NOW because tactics are still changing rapidly.
Summary: Some of the best players on Juno started playing half-way through Ixion. Some of the worst players have been playing Alpha since day 1. Being older doesn't matter if you aren't learning anything during that time.

Command Centers
Farm view: More command centers means more defenses so the more the better.
Farmer view: Command centers are the only structure in the game that gives absolutely no benefit, so I want to have just barely enough to hold all occupations.
Summary: Seriously, a crystal mine on a craters gives you more value than a command center that isn't holding an occupation. Putting 10 or 20 on each base is so costly in terms of area and population that you could double your production rate by disbanding them.


I'd like each of you to take a look at how you play this game. If you are doing a ton of damage to yourself in order to avoid being hurt by someone else, they'll go find someone else to farm and you've only hurt yourself. Play to win, not to avoid losing.

I've seen a rich man beg; I've seen a good man sin; I've seen a tough man cry.
I've sen a loser win and a sad man grin; I've heard an honest man lie.
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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Rayy » Sat 27 Nov, 2010 07:59

I think you should put in there about how practice = perfect isn't necessarily true, good practice = perfect. For example a painter can keep painting pictures of people all his life and never get any better if he doesn't work to improve areas he's bad at, whether it be blending anatomy detailing etc. You have to find WHY you are losing and WHY you are winning in order to become better. Also, do not make any excuses, as that becomes a "poor me" mentality that will harm you in AE, and life in general. This can be applied to everything throughout life, and is what I call a "winners attitude". Even top 10 players need to ask themselves questions as to why they aren't better. It was hinted at, but some people don't get it unless you put it out there explicitly.

An easy to see example with this is shooting games. Suck with the pistol? You're using the pistol now. Now you'll probably suck with the pistol still compared to other guns, but you'll figure out where the pistol should absolutely not be used and where it is your best option. With games like Touhou and fighters, such as Street Fighter or tekken it is impossible to become good without tons of GOOD practice. (seriously, touhou is hard as hell, I've only beaten Imperishible Night (the easiest game) on normal, and can't beat the others on easy, but I will get good at it eventually, I know my biggest problem--I suck at deathbombing and have been working on improving my reaction time as you only get 1/10 of a second to do it) it's a japanese game so you know its harder than nintendo hard.

I'm midway through the article you linked and it sounds similar to what I've said, and I'll finish reading it as I'll probably find some good stuff in here since he sounds well informed.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby SpeedySurfer » Sat 27 Nov, 2010 17:35

My P.E teacher used to say "Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent"

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Nagel » Sat 27 Nov, 2010 22:26

Farm view: Most poor players seem to feel that any time they are attacked it is dishonorable. Taking trades, stealing debris, killing outpost ships - they seem to think that these are acts of war when they absolutely are not.


While I agree, in all but one server this applies, the point becomes a little diluted for Alpha players. We do not think taking trades or stealing trades is dishonourable, but it does constitute and act of war.

I do agree with the rest of it though, I think in summary, a good player recognises that what goes around comes around, and at some point they themselves will get attacked.


Fleet
Farm view: Fleet is really cool and I'll get some whenever I'm not busy doing something else.
Farmer view: Fleet is the best route to increasing my credits and defending my bases, so I'll make as much of it as possible as quickly as possible.
Summary: There is no point to increasing capacity if you aren't always producing fleet - no point to increasing your economy if you won't be spending it on fleet. Fleet is the be all and end all in this game, so get a lot of it.


I agree, I think poorer players like to see those fleet numbers grow more and more thinking it makes them a great player. I would add that the truly good players, specialises their fleet in a direction that truly benefits their play style. A lot of people now specialise their fleets, the truly good ones pick a specialisation that benefits how they play the game.

Defenses
Farm view: If I'm unprofitable, no one will bother to hit me so I'd better spend most of my money on that.
Farmer view: I wish someone would attack me so I could find their fleet and derb it.
Summary: Defenses are handy for when you're offline or just don't want to bother watching your scanners, but mostly aren't necessary if your fleet is around. As long as you have enough that no one can sneak up on you, you can spend those credits on other things.


I disagree, personally. I think Farms for the most part do not bother to defend them selves adequately, instead preferring to throw up a multitude of useless defences rather then 'Over defending'. They also make the mistake of leaving fleet over bases thinking their planetary defences will stop them being hit.
Good players also do not want to be hit in order to draw the enemy out, as it means risking their precious highly leveled commanders.

Economy
Farm view: I'd better keep my economy low or someone will attack my base.
Farmer view: If I have lots of economy, I'll have more credits to build fleet with and even if someone hits my base, I'll still have more than I would have had if I'd kept it low.
Summary: A strong economy powers a strong empire. If you are keeping it low in order to avoid being profitable, you are hurting yourself more than anyone else.


Agree, assuming the Economy comes as a side product of infrastructure and occupations, I personally feel those players that strive for a high economy from stacking SPs, ECs and Capital are poor players, as they are substituting production for that Economy when at the end of the day Econ is just for those derb free periods.
Game experience
Summary: Some of the best players on Juno started playing half-way through Ixion. Some of the worst players have been playing Alpha since day 1. Being older doesn't matter if you aren't learning anything during that time.


It should be pointed out, whilst this can apply in some cases, some of the better players on the game and Alpha players, and some of the worst are newer players. Experience does count for a lot in this game, especially when you start to consider leadership roles.
Though it is fair to say, this game is not awfully hard to learn, and those who have the most time to put in, will get the most out generally.

I'd like each of you to take a look at how you play this game. If you are doing a ton of damage to yourself in order to avoid being hurt by someone else, they'll go find someone else to farm and you've only hurt yourself. Play to win, not to avoid losing.


I agree. I spend a lot of time helping and teaching people, and the most common thing new players say is 'But this make it harder for people to hit/profit from me'.

I think the sooner players realise the way to 'win' at this game is to be the one on the offensive, and taking calculated risks is a necessity the better.

Td:Lr
I agree, but I have a question. Have you ever actually played Alpha seriously?

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby WhiteKnight » Sat 27 Nov, 2010 23:15

alpha is different from any other server, and takes a different skill. To survive alpha all you need is connections, friends in high places is what kept me alive in alpha :).

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby xJudicatorx » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 04:07

Nagel wrote:Td:Lr
I agree, but I have a question. Have you ever actually played Alpha seriously?

I tried Alpha when I first started, I was a total scrub and no one bothered to help me. Didn't take me long to quit when I realized what a poor start I had.

I occasionally make new accounts there to practice my 10 in 7, but that's about it.

I've seen a rich man beg; I've seen a good man sin; I've seen a tough man cry.
I've sen a loser win and a sad man grin; I've heard an honest man lie.
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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Morfraen » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 06:53

Farmer view: I wish someone would attack me so I could find their fleet and derb it.


You still need an excuse to attack people on some servers? Figured they'd all be FFA by now.


Farmer view: I'd better learn all I can about the game as it is NOW because tactics are still changing rapidly.


On what developed server(s) are tactics changing 'rapidly'? Once you reach blob status there's not a whole lot more you can do. You kill whatever loose fleets you find, and roll every non-allied base you see with some ridiculous FT swarm.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Morfraen » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 07:02

Nagel wrote:I do agree with the rest of it though, I think in summary, a good player recognises that what goes around comes around, and at some point they themselves will get attacked.


Not really, once a server devolves into a blob state there's very little anyone can do against any 1 specific attacker. You only see 'what goes around comes around' with suiciders.


I personally feel those players that strive for a high economy from stacking SPs, ECs and Capital are poor players, as they are substituting production for that Economy


High econ structures doesn't have to mean any sacrifice in production. The 'best' players are the ones that have the highest of everything, econ, research, xp, not just fleet.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Wlerin » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 07:32

Morfraen wrote:
Farmer view: I wish someone would attack me so I could find their fleet and derb it.


You still need an excuse to attack people on some servers? Figured they'd all be FFA by now.

You misread. Note especially "so I could find their fleet". The attacker reveals the location of his fleet by attacking.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby xJudicatorx » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 08:47

Morfraen wrote:On what developed server(s) are tactics changing 'rapidly'? Once you reach blob status there's not a whole lot more you can do. You kill whatever loose fleets you find, and roll every non-allied base you see with some ridiculous FT swarm.

Specific servers do not change rapidly - because change usually requires new people and large head starts are incredibly difficult to overcome in this game. However, the tactics on each new server have been greatly refined and tactics which were incredibly effective in an older server will be useless or immediately countered on a newer one.

Plus the idea that you cannot do anything once you've reached blob status is ridiculous as has been proven recently on Helion.

I've seen a rich man beg; I've seen a good man sin; I've seen a tough man cry.
I've sen a loser win and a sad man grin; I've heard an honest man lie.
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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Nagel » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 15:12

Morfraen wrote:
Nagel wrote:I do agree with the rest of it though, I think in summary, a good player recognises that what goes around comes around, and at some point they themselves will get attacked.


Not really, once a server devolves into a blob state there's very little anyone can do against any 1 specific attacker. You only see 'what goes around comes around' with suiciders.


I personally feel those players that strive for a high economy from stacking SPs, ECs and Capital are poor players, as they are substituting production for that Economy


High econ structures doesn't have to mean any sacrifice in production. The 'best' players are the ones that have the highest of everything, econ, research, xp, not just fleet.



Again in total ignorance of Alpha, we are not and will never be in an all out two bloc blob war. So it is more then possible to strike against someone specifically.

Also, with an area soft cap on bases, at some point those econ structures are going to cost you prod.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby WhiteKnight » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 15:40

Nagel wrote:
Morfraen wrote:
Nagel wrote:I do agree with the rest of it though, I think in summary, a good player recognises that what goes around comes around, and at some point they themselves will get attacked.


Not really, once a server devolves into a blob state there's very little anyone can do against any 1 specific attacker. You only see 'what goes around comes around' with suiciders.


I personally feel those players that strive for a high economy from stacking SPs, ECs and Capital are poor players, as they are substituting production for that Economy


High econ structures doesn't have to mean any sacrifice in production. The 'best' players are the ones that have the highest of everything, econ, research, xp, not just fleet.



Again in total ignorance of Alpha, we are not and will never be in an all out two bloc blob war. So it is more then possible to strike against someone specifically.

Also, with an area soft cap on bases, at some point those econ structures are going to cost you prod.


how about that one time in A27 :whisle:

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Nagel » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 16:11

Was during a SW, and we all moved when the war was over.

Everyother sever they get there, and can not find the trust to move again, ending all the fun.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby xJudicatorx » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 20:34

Unless you're making enough debris to run double prod, construction, and tech constantly(not completely impossible, but very difficult), extra economy will never be wasted. As I'm sure you know, the higher construction costs for prod structures become, the more valuable low level econ structures become.

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Re: Rich dad, Poor dad (AE version)

Postby Nagel » Sun 28 Nov, 2010 22:16

xJudicatorx wrote:Unless you're making enough debris to run double prod, construction, and tech constantly(not completely impossible, but very difficult), extra economy will never be wasted. As I'm sure you know, the higher construction costs for prod structures become, the more valuable low level econ structures become.


I do agree, but people should not start throwing up those Economy structures till they start closing in on 'finishing' their bases and Production structures are so expensive.

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