How much seasoning does your delta need?

Face Rimmer
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How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Face Rimmer » Thu 25 Apr, 2013 00:12

All I seem to hear around delta these days is it is dead. Thinking about it..... all I have ever heard around delta for the last 2 years is, "delta is dead!" Even when we had AYAYA/SIM around people were still saying it had no life in it.
Now I know after the AYAYA/SIM war there was many people who threw in the towel which is understandable. After a lengthy war whether, you win or loose, it is a good a time as any to quit.

This thread is here for a few reasons.......

1)To discuss potential ways we can inject life into the server for future enjoyment.

2)We can hear thoughts from all players from all guilds, not just your own guild members and allies.

3)Would it help if delta went back to old skool ways of doing things by war declarations on the forum rather than its silent political mannerism which we some how adopted from somewhere I do not know :?

If you have just read this and all you can think of is, "delta is dead, there is nothing anyone can do its just a dying server." Please refrain from posting. There is no place for negativity in this thread. Lets just have some encouraging thoughts and ideas please!

Discuss!!!!!!!!

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby lolumz » Thu 25 Apr, 2013 17:58

I gave my acc away with 100milz feet it was that crappy there
was starving all the time :scared:

im sure FLEET alliance killed ayaya to revitalise the server did they not?
seems to me all they did was kill it proper.
over 100 guys quit since then.

only way to re do up delta is to initiate strongholds like newer servers
then farm out anyone out of there cluster

delta u can base were u want and makes you have too turtle defences
means u have to be on all the time at least with sh u get warning to get online
on delta is just zap fleet over :(

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Unclean » Thu 25 Apr, 2013 18:27

Face Rimmer wrote: 3)Would it help if delta went back to old skool ways of doing things by war declarations on the forum rather than its silent political mannerism which we some how adopted from somewhere I do not know :?
depends on what ppl want from their game.

TBH I find ALPHA the best server so not surprisingly I favour ALPHA type behaviour. But even there the game seems to be dieing.

The reason seems to have more to do with the inner logic of the game than rewards certain behaviours.

I hope I am not being unfair to the developers in saying that: It wouldn't be fair to expect them to have foreseen the consequences of design decisions made six plus years ago when they must have been more concerned to get the enterprise off the ground at all.

But let us suppose they did propose changes in the game system to encourage certain behaviours, end the 'endgame' syndrome, can you imagine the epic baw? Remember the nerd tears when they imposed the fighter drop limit?

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby iNTER » Fri 26 Apr, 2013 07:07

Tl;dr
1. Be more public and friendlier with guild politics.
2. Spit up the top guilds into smaller guilds for a more even fleet distribution across the server.
3. Allow more newbies into these guilds; lose the elitism.
4. Bring in proper protectorates, so no guild gets crushed and destroyed.
5. These will probably never happen.

You’re entitle to disagree, but please don’t dismiss these until you’ve read the reasoning below.

I think part of the problem can be solved by looking at some numbers on different servers and looking at what is different about Delta compared to the more active servers, and change the way things are done here to try and model more active servers.

How do we decide which servers are best to try and model? This is quite a leap, but ignoring the younger servers is probably beneficial, as their activity isn't representative of a mature server, since the initial excitement and draw of a new server is enough to skew the activity. So let's compare the oldest seven servers, giving the picture on older and younger 'mature' servers than Delta. We'll look initially at the number of players and the number currently online. I'm in the UK, so admittedly probably not in the best place to see peak numbers, but it should give an indication of the activity.

Image

So from this we can see that player numbers are on a pretty steady decline from Alpha downwards, with a minor unexpected rise at Epsilon. Ceti is pretty much the same as Delta, and Fenix and Gamma are much emptier than Delta. They do have slightly higher online players at 18:00 ST, but that could be due to the location of the players rather than activity and the numbers aren't high enough to be significantly different, so we'll ignore these two.

There is one clear winner in number of players and spectacularly better in terms of online players, almost four times higher, enough to take notice of. Alpha is the server with the best number of players and based on forum activity, the most active players out of these seven older servers and one which could be used as model to help revitalise Delta.

So what are the key differences between Alpha and Delta?

It's very difficult for me to analyse activity on the two servers without having a huge number of spies telling me the exact activity times for each server. Alpha players are more active on the forums and do talk to each other on the boards. Dialogue between guilds is often used on the forums to declare wars, as Ace mentioned. Additionally, the top guilds seem to be on friendly enough terms to actually talk about their wars, rather than the acerbic, barbed hostility that was prevalent on the guild boards back when I was in SIM. It was all ‘Crush the evil enemy, Destroy them all, once and for all, blah blah blah.’ I can’t comment on what the leaders were saying to each other, or how the other guilds in the conflict behaved, or what happened on the boards after I left, but it was so serious that it took the fun out of the game (which is why I left). So public and less aggressive dialogue between guilds might help. However, one massive difference I noticed was in the way the fleets are distributed on Alpha and Delta.

Image

On Delta we have the vast majority of the server’s fleet locked up in the top 5 guilds. After that point the fleets of the subsequent ranks become pretty much meaningless. If all the fleet is in the hands of a few guilds, there can’t be a variety of meaningful conflicts. Certainly, any guild not in that top five (and even GRITS looks out of place) can’t enjoy the game, since the vast armadas of the top guilds are going to cut them back down to zero before they get a chance to grow. And with so few guilds, moving and actively fighting are difficult. Huge blobs become the only way to be safe, which breeds inactivity.

Image

Alpha on the other hand, has a much more even distribution of fleet in its top thirty, as well having (when you add up the totals) over three times as much fleet on its server as Delta. It takes until rank 20 until you even see a guild with less than a billion in fleet total. This means more guilds are able to at least mount a solid defence against aggressors, which means more players can take part in conflicts without the worry of being squashed by bigger guilds, as the difference isn’t so drastically vast.

The way to evolve Delta into this kind of situation is to split up the top 5 guilds into at least 3 or four each. Then those guilds need to recruit from the lower levels. Teach them the ropes or at least give them a chance to become more than a snack. A player with 100m+ fleet hunting down a few hundred thousand in newbie meat isn’t a fight that the little guy can ever win. Neither can he avoid getting destroyed by moving his fleet around as the bigger guy can easily split his fleet up to corner him down. Having more guilds with more fleet reduces this issue. Obviously it’s down the competence of the guilds to look after their fleet, which means more players need to learn how to play. Inviting more newer players into these guilds will mean that more players become competent, which is better for the server, as they can grow their fleets and participate meaningfully in wars.

Obviously, it’s unrealistic to think that there will be 30 guilds which are all their ranks, fleets and activity will be biased. Neither is it conductive to an active server that only the top 30 guilds count. From experience playing on Alpha, I can say that the vast majority of guilds ranked 1-50 are involved in server politics and play an active role on the forums (albeit smaller guilds to a lesser degree than the top guilds). The relevance of the smaller ranks is due to the fact that most of them have a protector guild in the upper ranks. There is a sense of justice on Alpha in that the leaders of the top guilds don’t want a stagnant server where only the top 10 guilds are relevant, they want growth from the lower levels and activity. The protector arrangement is actually upheld as well; guilds who say they will defend their allies will generally go to war with the aggressor, as long as there was no valid reason for the attack on their protectorate. This is all made public on the forums so other players on the server are aware of the reasons. Having a protectorate (or many) is advantageous to the protector guilds as well. Active protectorates act as additional scouts when the larger guild is at war. Additionally, protectorate guilds can sometimes offer jump gates in convenient locations if there isn’t any guild jump gate available.

The suggestions I’m making for Delta are summarised in the tl;dr section at the beginning. I’m not saying all of them need to be followed, just that these are the reasons why Alpha, the oldest server, is so active many years after it started. A flaw in my own reasoning is that I don’t know what Alpha is like now, as I left there over a year ago. Additionally, I’m aware that splitting the top guilds is a contentious issue, which (in all likelihood) none of them will take up. Either way, with the vast majority of the server’s fleet locked up in these top 5 guilds, it will be entirely up to the leaders of those guilds to decide if they want to take any action. But why ruin a good thing, if you’re a top 5 guild, why would you take any action to change that?
Last edited by iNTER on Fri 26 Apr, 2013 17:05, edited 1 time in total.

So far, you've exhibited the strategic and tactical instincts of a pacifist lemming.
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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Face Rimmer » Fri 26 Apr, 2013 14:13

Very interesting points Inter and thank you for the time spent on your post. I did give you the courtesy of reading all of it and I cant agree more about the splitting up of the top 5 guilds. I am willing to announce that it is something I would embrace. If NeM, CFF and FLEET all come out and agree to a split I would divide GOMN right away to show that we are devoted to a new fun server. This is rich coming from the guild in the top 5 who has the least amount of players lol

So to the other top 5 guild leaders I say to you............. Are you content with this stagnation? Are you willing to spark more life into the server by splitting your guilds into smaller groups of players? Obviously we would have to hack it out on here and work out the fine details but I think the first step would be to commit to this first.

What say you??

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby hyperjoe » Sun 28 Apr, 2013 01:13

My belief is that players in Alpha want to have fun playing the game.

My belief is that players in subsequent servers want to have the highest fleet count (*cough* Kris in Ceti *cough*) or the highest rescap (Rockyplayer in Delta? :P ), or the highest eco.

It would take not only a split of guilds but also a fundamental shift in player mindset.

Players with high fleet count would have to develop the restraint not to "shield rape" a fleet 1/10th their size just because they can and instead allow an allied fleet of more comparable size go after that target.
Players as a whole would have to be willing to accept periods (usually a few weeks long) where they aren't allowed to pursue certain targets. And those targets would rotate every time.
Players as a whole would have to be willing to sacrifice some of their own fleet and allow others to pick up derbs without expecting payback just so their friends/allies can reap the benefits and get stronger.

This is just a small snapshot of what makes Alpha different from Delta.

Can the players of Delta change their behaviors to make it work?

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Ephesians » Sun 28 Apr, 2013 07:24

The problem with splitting up the top 5 guilds into smaller guilds is the lack of players active/capable/willing enough to lead these hypothetical new guilds that will be created.

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Face Rimmer » Sun 28 Apr, 2013 10:54

I understand activity may have diminished in CFF Eph but it may be because your blob has sat in the same place for about half a year (no exaggeration). The only way you can distinguish high activity in your guild is by small ops where a few guys go hit up a few targets away from your blob and then return. If you made 3 guilds out of your 1 then people would have no choice but to step up their game and their activity. When we were fighting AYAYA/SIM I used to see CFF move their whole blob with no trouble because we had stuff to do and a lot was at steak. If you moved your blob tomorrow it would take days because your players wont expect it.

About 2 weeks ago GOMN was at a point where the activity levels were getting poor, nobody was really doing anything and the blob hadn't moved for ages. By kicking them up the *beep*, giving them something to do and some encouragement we quickly turned that around and now I am pleased to say things are looking alittle more GOMN'like again in our guild. What I am trying to say is that activity depends on the activity of the person(s) controlling what direction the guild takes. If you sit in 1 place for ages doing nothing as a guild people loose interest. You move around and encourage scouting etc then you will see a massive increase in activity.

To say that there are not enough capable players to run a guild is a bit harsh bud. I can think of several people in CFF/FLEET/GOMN/NeM/GRITS who are more than capable of running a guild. I have battled against and alongside many of them in the past and so have the current leaders of said guilds.

I personally believe if you can get the capable players active and give them encouragement and the right backing they would be willing to make a change!

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Ephesians » Sun 28 Apr, 2013 14:11

I understand activity may have diminished in CFF Eph but it may be because your blob has sat in the same place for about half a year (no exaggeration).
you misunderstand. I'm not talking about activity to play, I'm talking about activity to lead... 2 very different things. Logging in on a regular basis and leisure farming and moving with the blob when needed is easy. But taking the time to plan and coordinate a guild op and being online the entire duration of the op to oversee it is an entirely different story.

To say that there are not enough capable players to run a guild is a bit harsh bud. I can think of several people in CFF/FLEET/GOMN/NeM/GRITS who are more than capable of running a guild. I have battled against and alongside many of them in the past and so have the current leaders of said guilds.
The reason that the people you are referring to were so successful in the past is that that they worked together to make it happen and share the burdens of running the ops. split them all up on separate teams and the entire burden will fall on one person. There are several players in CFF who are capable, but being capable is only part of it. they need to be capable AND willing. Just because one is capable of leading a guild and has done so in the past does not mean that they are willing to do it again. There are several players in CFF for example who have been GM or some other form of leadership in successful guilds on other servers or before joining CFF who simply have no desire whatsoever to be a GM again.


Dont get me wrong, I'm not completely against the idea of change, I just think there are a lot of things that would need to be worked out still and lots of things that have not been considered yet.

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Face Rimmer » Sun 28 Apr, 2013 15:34

What sorts of things do you believe need to be worked out? What is it that has not yet been considered?

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Ephesians » Mon 29 Apr, 2013 05:09

Well the practicality of enough people stepping up who are both capable and willing as previously mentioned i believe is the biggest flaw. Here are a few more things to consider:

The ties and friendships of current guildmates not wanting to attack each other. For example if one guild splits up into 3 guilds, those three guilds' players will all still be friends and want to protect each other so we will just have 3 smaller guilds blobbed on different JG in the same galaxy instead of all on the same astro

JG networks will be "ruined" as not every newly reformed guild will have JG in all galaxies, thus requiring the use of borrowing JG from allies, which in most cases will be past guildmates. Ultimately it will just make it more of a hassle to guild hop for JG network rather than the way it is now with everyone under the same tag.

Spy networks and info leaks could likely run rampant as a result of former guildmates possibly ending up in new guilds.

Its even possible that splitting up guilds might even make delta worse off since Delta doesn't seem to have enough solid leadership players (going back to point #1). Those members who end up in a mish mash guild of random players with no "real leadership" may just end up quitting even sooner since they have no guidance.

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby sternenpunk » Mon 29 Apr, 2013 12:33

iNTER wrote:On Delta we have the vast majority of the server’s fleet locked up in the top 5 guilds.
Funny how similar those numbers are to those of Kappa:

DDoS 34.9%
SoT 30.5%
WOLF 12.0%
KAOS 8.2%
Death 6.2%
Total Top 5 92%

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Face Rimmer » Mon 29 Apr, 2013 16:11

Ephesians wrote:Well the practicality of enough people stepping up who are both capable and willing as previously mentioned i believe is the biggest flaw.
You say this like you have messaged your guild members individually and asked them if they are willing to create a new guild, all of which declined. Somehow I find that hard to believe. I also don't think there has been much talk of it on your boards. Have you even announced that it is something worth discussing within the guild and you would like to hear feedback from guild members? Or are you just assuming nobody is willing and/or capable?

Ephesians wrote:The ties and friendships of current guild mates not wanting to attack each other. For example if one guild splits up into 3 guilds, those three guilds' players will all still be friends and want to protect each other so we will just have 3 smaller guilds blobbed on different JG in the same galaxy instead of all on the same astro
Here is a guild rule we have in GOMN that combats this situation. I have fought plenty of guilds that have players who I am friendly with.
GOMN Rules wrote: * GOMN will not have people dropping out of potential hits because of personal relations with someone in a guild we are lined up to hit. This is a War game the only happy, little space community centre should be within our guild.
Also you will find that within large guilds you have circles of friends within the guild that generally work together. If larger guilds are to split then they would probably stick together. For example..... If CFF were to split into smaller groups I am sure the old LSD guys would probably stick together. Same with GOMN if we were to split then I would assume the old Zephyr players would stick together.

Ephesians wrote:JG networks will be "ruined" as not every newly reformed guild will have JG in all galaxies, thus requiring the use of borrowing JG from allies, which in most cases will be past guildmates. Ultimately it will just make it more of a hassle to guild hop for JG network rather than the way it is now with everyone under the same tag.
I do not see this being a problem at all. I am 100% positive that not 1 of the top 5 guilds have access to every single galaxy on the server without borrowing JG's. I actually think this will encourage guilds to form pacts and relations, create battles, wars and make people work for their targets. At the start of delta did every guild have access to each galaxy set? Wasnt it more fun when people had to really work to get into different clusters/galaxies? I think so, it gave smaller guilds safe havens to grow and made it challenging for bigger war machines to pin down the small fry.

Ephesians wrote:Spy networks and info leaks could likely run rampant as a result of former guild mates possibly ending up in new guilds.
I am not going to address this touchy subject with great detail but I do believe we already have spy problems in all the guilds that contain the majority of the servers fleet. Nuff said! Although since GOMN no longer has Gurliver playing anymore, leaks are at an all time low :P (Miss you Gurl!)

Ephesians wrote:Its even possible that splitting up guilds might even make delta worse off since Delta doesn't seem to have enough solid leadership players (going back to point #1). Those members who end up in a mish mash guild of random players with no "real leadership" may just end up quitting even sooner since they have no guidance.
Yea its possible it could make things worst but its certainly possible it could make things 10x more enjoyable. I think so far the pros outweigh the cons. Delta could be the model for the aging servers that are stuck with these deadlocked power blocks. Wouldn't it be great in 6-12 months time other servers look at us and decide to remodel themselves on our decisions made in this thread by dismantling the big guilds and choosing fun over centralisation of power. We would be role models for new leadership coming through the ranks and could create a fail safe mechanism that stops the "[insertguildtag] won the server" scenario to an extent.


One thing I will throw out there for anyone who is considering to pull away from any of the top guilds is this..... If you approach myself ingame I will grant you a pact and use of our JG's to help you get started. Secondly any smaller guilds outside the top 5 who wish for help, guidance, protection as long as you are an active guild this extents to you also.

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Raze9 » Mon 29 Apr, 2013 23:29

Thank you Ace for starting this post and for all of the replies so far. I've not played Delta as long as some have here, but I believe my knowledge of the Delta Server is strong enough to speak on the subject. The following are my ideas as to how to fix our stagnation of the sever we enjoy playing. They have been shared before with a few of my friends on Delta in various guilds and have always heard the same reply. “Wont happen the big boys will not give up the power, and not enough good leaders”. Well we can continue to go down this road and watch another 100 or so players just stop logging in, or we could work out a plan.

Here is where we stand at the moment as far as totals go in fleet and members.

Guild Fleet Members Ave. Mobile
1 CFF 10,038,569,780 83 120,946,624
2 FLEET 7,788,039,700 65 119,815,995
3 NeM 6,388,105,315 128 49,907,073
4 GOMN 5,132,258,585 35 146,635,960
5 GRITS 2,627,923,560 42 62,569,609

With theses numbers no one outside of the top 5 have any shot. If they got lucky to kill one of our members or even two. They would be hunted down in a few days and whipped out.

Ok so let's get radical break up the power blocks and reform the server. By setting up rules that all the guilds will follow as a baseline in recreating ourselves along with the server.

1) End all of the current Alliances
2) Break up all the top five guilds into smaller ones with limits in fleet and member sizes
a. Max guild fleet size of 2.5bil for the next 6 months and no more than 3bil for the next year
b. Max guild membership of 55 (this can changed for jg sharing and ops which I'll explain later)
3) All new guilds will have 30 days to get organized
a. On the 45th day an old guild can declare war on one of the new ones
4) All new guilds can declare war at anytime after the 30 day organization period
5) All guilds would take on another guild to help grow. (training guild or sister guild)
6) This would set up between 5-7 new guilds or reforming of old guilds from the past
7) Create a Delta Council to handle disputes and the continued rebirth of Delta
a. One member from each of the top 10-12 guilds
b. Set up a rotation of members either 6months to a year
c. All infractions to be decided by the council minus the guilds involved
8) Each guild can have only one MDP and four NAPs
a. The NAPs can only be with one top guild
b. All Pacts to be turned into the Delta Council
9) Wars once declared your membership is frozen to the guilds involved and members listed
a. Each guild can only pull help from their pacts
b. Any members not involved in the war would move to sub guild for the duration of the war
c. Only JGs from your own guild or pacts may be used those would be set up before the start or the war
d. No other guild can declare on a guild already at war
Example: Guilds ABC and your MDP vs. Guild XYZ and their MDP. You can share those JGs only, but you can add members from your sub guild who want to battle.
10) Wars can only go on for a Max of 60 days


This should create a total of 10-12 major guilds with around 2.1bil mobiles per guild. In turn this would organize 10-12 sub guild to help grow. Delta would go back 3-4 years ago with more controlled results moving forward. Of course the numbers would change as we move forward in time as mobiles will continue to grow. If your not convinced yet here are some more examples to think about.


1
[FLEET] ζЂïεηΞςЂưηζ
406,507,140
Just in case you missed it over the past few days. Chen just had a snack of 73 Levis and cleaned up part of the 150mil plus in debris. Anyone want to guess when he will be over 500mil fleet by his self?


60
[ARM]
Tested ARMERS
14.54
12
7.84
A new guild created today with 12 members already and who knows might have more coming along. This guild if given the chance to grow could be in the top 30 by the end of May and top 20 by June.

We could have at least 20 strong guilds by the end of June. With the chance of others reforming or joining the make it around 25 guilds with 75% of them having some chance to be a top 5 guild at some point.

At a crossroad?

The questions to ask about Delta Server are:
Am I happy?
Has your activity level changed?
How will a change effect the game?
Do I want to keep playing?
Delta is my favorite server. Maybe because it was my first. TBH I'm not happy as I was a few years ago, and either we make a big change or my activity might slip more. I've made some friends over my 4 1/2 plus years playing AE.

Anyone that takes the time to read the wall of text thank you sorry it's so long.

Raze9

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?ia

Postby Evil Wabbit » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 05:21

There are some serious issues with your proposed idea, however, I haven't the time to go over them right now. As a long time Alpha player I can offer my best advice on how to reform the server, but you will have to wait until I can go into detail extensively.

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