How much seasoning does your delta need?

RyueOkami
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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby RyueOkami » Wed 01 May, 2013 22:38

Heya
I'm from the before mentioned guild ARM. We came to delta originally only on a training run (to test a few things about building accounts out).
I have played from ixion onwards and must say....delta is by far the friendliest server I have ever seen in AE (don't know alpha to ceti.....a guildmate
told me earlier today it is normal in the older servers that ppls and guilds are friendly......ixion onwards is there compeltely different).

So now to why I post here. I have been asked to also say something on this thread, and I have read through most of the points stated.

As far as I have seen as good as all servers have the problem with players leaving and the server slowly dying out more and more.
From what I have seen on ixion, juno and kappa (mind please I don't know the political situation on delta it CAN be quite different here),
one of the major problems is the top 4 guilds. Usually either they pact each other, or don't go against each other for fear of loosing.
Instead they go on farming runs and have the policy to not let anyone grow (at least to the members of the top 15 guilds it seems so as there is
no save haven). On kappa this is even so extreme that the top 2 guilds take turns in farming the same regions (sometimes even during the same time
as they don't hit each other out of fear of loosing).
Because of that on those servers small guilds have absolutely no chance of building up, and thus die out as players just give up one after the other.
One reason for that is: You do something to helpa guildmate.....suddnely the guy who had attacked your guildmate is knocking on your door, with
2x your whole guilds fleet (and your guild being a top 10 guild).

That is also the reason how the statistic that was mentioned came to be (wolf, kaos and death are either pacted with ddos and sot and get farmed by only one of those......while all others have both at their doorsteps...every other week).
sternenpunk wrote:
iNTER wrote:On Delta we have the vast majority of the server’s fleet locked up in the top 5 guilds.


Funny how similar those numbers are to those of Kappa:

DDoS 34.9%
SoT 30.5%
WOLF 12.0%
KAOS 8.2%
Death 6.2%
Total Top 5 92%


So in total I think one of the problems in getting new players is the "hopelessness" with them catching ever up and with them and their new guilds standing any chance against anybody.

As for posting on the forums in regards to war declarations,....: From what I just read a bit in the threads here...it could work on delta (on ixion+ there is too much trolling [90% of the posts there are troll pure]).

---------------------------------------------
So far a few thoughts to the things that were said. Now a few ideas also from me there.
Another space MMO (won't say names as I'm tired and not sure if its against forum rules or not) seemingly manages to keep players long term AND get new players.
When I read how politics are made there and what they effect,.... I was fascinated. So I'm going to use that as an example idea here and throw it into the ring so to say:
The basic ideas there are:
-Regardless of guildsizes,... there are powerblocks / coalitions.
-Coalitions reign over a specific territory and you or even your guild can apply to be part of a coalition
-Coalitions can fight each other and the winner gets territory from the looser (either already preset during war declaration or during negotiation afterwards)
-Wars themselves can be fought with either a preset number of forces, or players or a full blown war
-Territory could be hunting rights, or UC rights,.... (I'm not long enough on the server to know how many UCs,... there are).
-Wars themselves should be (like someone mentioned) out in the open and not behind closed doors, as reading about the wars and the facts about "Galaxy X, region xy is now freed of the opression,..." is what spruns interest.
-Also if coalitions are used there should be some site (best s website not only the forums) with
a.) a graphical layout of the galaxies including which territories each coalition reigns over
b.) An overview over the coalitions thus:
The name of the coalition, its goals (if it has some speicific ones),
which guilds are part of the coalition, a history of the coalition including whom they fought and whomt hey won/lost against.
c.) A history of the server (including the wars,....), also specific blob crashes detailed out a bit,....
Also for example not only "A declared at xxxx on B" but instead "A has suffered long enough the betrayals of B and thus declared war on date xxxx".
So more like real reports than only a dry history lesson so to say.

Like I said the basic idea is from another game (I'm not playing it, but that is the idea I got when I read about their coalitions, their powerblocks, the history of their wars,....).

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Fes » Thu 02 May, 2013 18:51

This is probably an AE development idea, but in order to keep the servers alive longer, why not limit the number of people allowed in a guild so that no guild can have, say, 5% of the total fleet in it. Plus some time factor. This could even be implemented on old servers like Delta. It forcibly prevents a large guild build up. It will prevent people jumping to friendly guilds because if they leave a big guild, they may not be able to get back in.
Enforcing smaller guilds may (and I am thinking out loud here so no flames please) spread the fleet wealth more evenly if the numbers are right.
Of course, we could end up with FLEET1, 2, 3 etc but maybe it would allow the smaller guilds a chance as they could have many more players and thus have an equal fleet size.
It would be nice if the smaller guilds could have bigger total fleet sizes etc. That would put them on an even keel with older established guilds.

Just my thoughts...

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby xanth » Fri 03 May, 2013 06:02

Most of what I was going to say earlier has already been mentioned, but I'll add my two cents in anyway. I've heard a lot about limiting the number of members a guild can have, but that can work both ways. While, yes, you do have more players to use in an operation, provided they are active, you also have more members that can be inactive creating an overall drag on the guild. What if there were limits to what a guild's economy could be? That would seem like a better solution to me. Say two guilds both have the same amount of players. One may have an economy of 150k while the other guild's economy may be only 25k. You can't build fleet without credits and you can't start getting credits without economy (except for derb collecting obviously).

Another option, along the limited economy line, could be having specific categories of relative economy. For example: Guild A has 25 players and an economy of 100k, while Guild B has only 15 players with an economy of 100k. Both Guild A and Guild B would be in the same category due to their economy level. It could be split up something like this:

Category 1 - 25k - 50k eco
Category 2 - 50k - 75k eco
Category 3 - 75k - 100k eco
Category 4 - 100k - 150k eco
Category 5 - 150k - 200k eco
etc.
There would have to be strictly enforced stipulations regarding attacks based on a Guilds Category level. For this we might say that you would only be able to attack a Category that is one level above or below you. If two or more guilds were to form an alliance to execute a combined attack, they would be limited to attacking a Guild that is either one level above or one level below their combined economy according to Category. The same would hold true for two sets of allied Guilds.

To make this work, you would need a dedicated thread for these Economic Categories in order to keep track of what Guilds are in what Category. As a Guild grows, it would obviously be able to upgrade it's current Category as it gains more economy as it develops. That would also add a twist to the game requiring a bit of strategy in Guild development. Trying to get the best fleet possible while staying within a certain Economic Category

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby iNTER » Sat 04 May, 2013 00:06

Ruder wrote:IMO the only way to truly fix Delta in the manner you guys want is to get AE to change the game mechanics.


Not necessarily. The server has become what it is (basically a 3-4 guild stranglehold) for two reasons.

1. The activity and dedication shown by those at the top right now. I was in SIM, I can vouch that most of that part of that side of the conflict was inactive and dead weight. FLEET/CFF/GOMN and whoever else basically kept their guys playing and active. This meant that when the SIM/AYAYA coalition was finally defeated, those guilds were the remaining power bloc. The preceding year(?) has been full of farming and simming due to the inevitable lack of comparable enemies. Regrettably, your victory led to point 2.

2. Too much fleet in the control of the few. I'm sure many of you are outraged at the uneven distribution of wealth in the United States and pretty much every other country in the world. Yet in a Space MMORPG where fleet is essentially a measure of wealth, the distribution is very uneven. The top 5 guilds (when you do the maths (yes, that is a plural ;) ) contain 92.36% of the fleet on the server and only 30.4% of the players on the server. This means that since (tbh understandably) they like it at the top, they will make small profits to stop the growth of other guilds/players.

The change can therefore come from a shift in the mindset of the top guilds on the server. What they choose to do is their decision. Players like Ace have decided to try and make a change, and others have come forward in support. The top guilds can make the server fun and interesting for the other 69.6% of players on the server as well as for themselves IF they choose to take forward some of the excellent proposals I've read on this forum.

Honestly, this topic has gone far further than I expected it to. Delta's few altruistic players should be commended for their attempts to try and change the status quo that is sucking the life out of the server.

You all have my humble thanks for your efforts.

So far, you've exhibited the strategic and tactical instincts of a pacifist lemming.
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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Evil Wabbit » Sat 04 May, 2013 01:36

Okay, finally got some time to make my reply on the subject at hand. First, I will compare Alpha and Delta, I will then move on to the ideas that have been brought up, and will then move to my own ideas.

1) Alpha
Alpha is split into 5 blocs (top 30 guilds)
[13th] - 26.8B 29.98%
[42AO] - 19.1B 21.36%
[BORG] - 16.2B 18.1%
[=A=] - 15B 16.78%
[«o»] - 12.3B 13.76%

Compare that to Delta's top 5:
[CFF] - 10.1B 31.46%
[FLEET] - 7.8B 24.30%
[NeM] - 6.4B 19.94%
[GOMN] - 5.2B 16.20%
[GRITS] - 2.6B 8.10%

And you notice that both servers are practically split the same way, with Delta being a little more top-heavy than Alpha. Only exception is that CFF is allied with NeM/GRITS and NAP'd with GOMN. GOMN and FLEET are MDP'd, and NeM and GRITS are MDP'd or allied as well. If you follow that, it means that Delta is a 2-bloc server:
[FLEET] + [GOMN] = 13B 40.50%
[CFF] + [NeM] + [GRITS] = 19.1B 59.50%

1a) Mindset
Growth
In Alpha, it is encouraged for the small guilds to grow, as seen by the numerous pacts offered by the upper guilds to lower guilds to protect them should a shot be fired upon them "out of war". In this way, Alpha encourages the lower levels to grow and become stronger and more skilled before moving up into the big-leagues to fight with the much higher and/or skilled players.

Trades
This is, I believe, unique to Alpha alone. Trade routes external of the guild(s) you are fighting are considered off-limits to take. If you do take the routes, the guild who you provoked (not the guild you are fighting), is granted the ability to take retribution for such an aggression. While it may sound trivial, it is a factor in keeping players in Alpha when they do not have to worry about the enemy guild stripping all of their trades.

Wars
All wars are declared via the forums with a 24 hour warning, and a No Pearl Harbor pact in effect with the top 30 guilds and even some of those below. This means that when a guild declares war upon another guild, they post a notice about their intentions on the forum 24 hours before any attacks are made. The GM or Diplomat (as they should be the only two posting the declaration) send a PM to the opposing side's GM and Diplomat informing them that they have been declared on and with a link to the forum thread.

Terms of war are usually set in the declaration, such as:
50K+ fleet UC occs are fair game
200K+ Drek occs
Indy (occs of any other guild/player) left alone
Internal TRs (a given by Alpha rules)
Start date
End date or time limit with offer to extend or cut the war time
Terms need to be agreed upon by both sides, however, the party being declared upon gets to set final terms except for the start/end dates and trade routes. (start/end dates can be negotiated by both sides)


2) Previous Ideas
Guild Fleet Caps
While it may seem a good idea, it may actually cause even more stagnation when guilds ally up with one another to keep their blob safe from another guild. To counter this, Delta needs to adopt the 24-hour rule of declaring wars and agreeing to not Pearl Harbor another guild. This cap will need to raise as the server ages to keep in touch with the number of players and size of fleets. Another thing to watch out for on this, is the "super-guild" where the top X players in fleet all gather into one guild and have the capability to wipe out any other guild. At the proposed 2B, this would be the top 6 players with a total maximum growth of 71.8M fleet until they hit the max guild fleet cap.

Member Caps
A safer idea than fleet caps, but can still cause stagnation by leaving players hanging out to dry when moving for gates unless guilds are allowed to use JGs from several other guilds such as they have the ability to now. Also does not account for equal distribution of fleets to keep the guilds equal for fun wars.

Pact Rotation
Excellent idea that I have not heard proposed before. Say every 4 months or so guilds rotate their pacts so they work with new guilds and new players, this will bring a sense of unity to Delta unlike any other server, including Alpha where only every so often pacts are change so radically. This also helps prevent the build-up of Guild A hating Guild B so much they will do anything to get rid of that guild.


3) My Ideas
Average Fleet Caps
Instead of basing guilds off of total fleet, mix the guild average with a member cap. For instance, Delta has 1,016 players currently playing. Take a member cap of 50 per guild, and at minimum Delta has 20 guilds. Now, take the total fleet in the players over level 50 and average it (maximum fleet for a level 50 player is 6.25M considering 0 tech and 0 econ, so I will use 5M as the cut-off fleet size), then add 5M to that average to set the average cap for Delta.

Now, when calculating a guild's average, one should look at it as the players over level 50 as factoring into the fleet total as the players below usually do not have enough to affect the outcome of a battle and should be left to their own doings with other players the same size.
The current average for the players with more than 5M fleet is:

Code: Select all

Total      Players   Average
34,484,359,215   445   77,492,942

Delta guild average cap: (Total / Players +5,000,000)

Code: Select all

Total      Players   Average
34,484,359,215   1,016    38,941,298


24 hour warning and a No Pearl Harbor pact
The guilds who sign agree to give the guilds they are declaring war upon a 24-hour warning and to not Pearl Harbor another guild (means blob crash or kill one or more fleets out of war with said guild). Guilds should also look to declare even wars, meaning that the total fleet and averages balance out such as this war in Alpha:

Code: Select all

9   [NPO]    New Planetary Order   3,194,352,475   27   118,309,351
12   [NECRO]    NECROMONGERS   2,775,684,785   15   185,045,652


If guilds declare an "unfair" war then the guild(s) declared upon have the right to bring their allies in or to even up the war. For the most part, guilds even the war up instead of escalating the conflict by bringing in their "big brother".



Just overall ideas for the elongation of Delta, fine-tuning will have to be done of course by the leaders of all top guilds. Do need to make sure that every guild in the top 20 is informed of the changes at the very least.

~EW

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Tehedra » Sat 04 May, 2013 02:29

Raze9 wrote:To all the ones that read my first post/wall of text. Thank you again for the read and replies. Btw did you know that they let you have 60k characters per post? Reminds me of the old days when Tehedra posted many novels. :biglaugh: Hello Sir hope all is well with you.


So there is a cap? Never knew that :P

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Fat Dadi » Sat 04 May, 2013 06:21

I am glad this thread was brought to my attention (I had forsaken the forums long ago due to the drama). I am not a seasoned veteran like many of the others, but have enjoyed AE and Delta in particular from the start. It has been sad to see the decline of the server and have to admit to being one of the somewhat inactives.

I have read through the thread and seen many good ideas. At some point I hope to set aside enough time to post my two cents worth, but until then suffice it to say I believe this can be something that WILL revitalize Delta and keep it from continuing it's downward spiral.

Enjoy your game, Life is hard enough.....
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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Raze9 » Sat 04 May, 2013 07:07

iNTER and EW thanks for your ideas. Btw EW any relation to Tehedra? :biglaugh: Wow that was turning into a novel.

To clarify what I meant by total guild fleet limits. This would only be for the first year mainly as to give everyone a fair more balanced server.
To start the max would be 2.5b but would expand to 3b in the next 6 months and then after that the Delta Council would make the chances moving forward. The initial setup would bring 10-12 guilds total with these limits in place. As for limiting guilds membership to 55 as I stated before might not be the best way to go about this.

One of the big questions has been do we have enough people that would want to lead a guild. CFF, FLEET, and GOMN are made up of more that just there original members. We also have other guilds that people can move to if they did not want to lead.

As EW said about smaller guilds. They would be off limits to the bigger guilds by establishing a cut off point in difference of fleet totals. and yes Delta could have 20-24 truly functioning guilds. That actually play the game instead of 5 guilds dominating the server. With the rest running for their lives every time our blob moves near them. This is why my suggestion was for taking a guild under the wing of the top guilds each. Doesn't mean your running it, but offering up suggestions and help when needed.

Unfortunately it comes down to:
A) Giving up power
B) Might lose my mobile
C) Can I trust the other side
D) Ego (wanting to be the last one standing)

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby iNTER » Sat 04 May, 2013 07:58

Raze9 wrote:Unfortunately it comes down to:
A) Giving up power
B) Might lose my mobile
C) Can I trust the other side
D) Ego (wanting to be the last one standing)


These are very valid reasons why there will be come obstacles. The simple fact is that unless ALL guilds in Delta agree to the suggestions, very little will happen. However, there are a few ways to iron out these problems.

A - First of all, I'm assuming you meant the power that comes from being in a top guild and being able to have the option of being the big fish compared to the smaller players. The 'make them run for their lives when our blob moves' kind of power.

This can resolved by sharing the power of the sever amongst the leaders of guilds. You're reducing the amount of power you have, but not giving it all up completely. Guilds on Alpha tremble when 13th post a declaration, since they are the best guild I've ever seen in terms of activity, motivation and leadership. Even with restrictions in place to prevent guilds becoming too big and powerful, there is still power there for those that have the guts to take it. However, on Alpha (sorry, I'm sure people are sick of hearing about how much better Alpha is) all guilds have some power, just not all of it, based on the alliances and pacts they share.

B - I have been umming and ah-ing about how to say this delicately. The basic issue is that it's a war game. However you play it there is a risk you will lose your mobile, and if it's not a risk you want to take I'm unsure about why you're playing. You have a mobile to attack other players, so using that mobile implies a certain amount of risk. So this is one that shouldn't be a problem, but probably will be.

However, I've seen players lose stacks of fleet and be able to to rebuild. The best way to do that is to have the regular wars people used to. If guilds have a two week war, then any player who lost their mobile in the last on has time to build some recs, and collect some derbs courtesy of their guild mates good hits on the enemy. I'm assuming a level of competence on the guild's part of course. Which can be resolved with the 'many pacts' ideas that have been thrown around since more guilds will have access to the knowledge of how to play properly.

C - Probably the most problematic of your four obstacles. Delta has been silent in terms of diplomacy and what the spies upon spies and back stabbings and betrayals pretty much no one trusts anyone anymore.

This can be helped by exactly what we're doing here. Talking things out and getting to know each other again. If you are on friendly terms with people in other every other guild (or at least more than the four people who regularly log in in your guilds) then trust can be rebuilt.

The pact rotation idea will also help. if you know that you're going to be allied with another guild in the next few months, and will in all probability be fighting alongside them, then you're not going to pee them off too much or backstab them when you have the chance as they will very easily have the option of getting you back. If people play with a sense of honour then it makes the game more enjoyable. That's just my opinion. Some of you may love your spy network...

D - No solutions here, just a mention that that is what got Delta into this mess in the first place. It's a route to stagnation and decline. This is a continuous universe and therefore winning the server serves no purpose other than to leave you with no one left to fight and simming your only option.

Raze, i'm fully aware that these were issues you highlighted to show how difficult this is going to be. Your contributions have been great and I'm not trying to knock you personally with my post. I hope that's understood.

So far, you've exhibited the strategic and tactical instincts of a pacifist lemming.
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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Raze9 » Sat 04 May, 2013 08:50

Your pretty much right on the money iNTER. I enjoy the feed back and the replies you came up with are right along the train of thought.

Anyone who has played this game long enough has seen the mobile they build go boom. Weather it is a total wipe-out, or just a big loss of your mobile. It happens and is part of the game. I've rebuilt about 4 times my self and have killed my fair share of mobiles in my time.

At this point I would say the "BALL" is in your court:

[CFF] Ephesians
[FLEET] ζЂïεηΞςЂưηζ
[NeM] Bindel™
[GOMN] Ace Rimmer
[GRITS] VENO

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Tehedra » Mon 06 May, 2013 01:37

You are asking a lot out of most of the members of Delta who are left active, and I believe many are too concerned about their own accounts. I know there are many out there who could lead but you would find that the top guilds just will not want to split up; or even fight each other. You are asking those that have the top 50 fleets to actually use them and lose them and hope that they share out the debris to those who are in the bottom 300 instead.

I honestly just do not see many members willing to; but time will tell. The server could become much more interesting if people would be willing to do things to help create an influx of players in the game and start helping those who are smaller grow.

But as I said I really do not see it happening.

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Evil Wabbit » Thu 09 May, 2013 04:06

Raze9 wrote: At this point I would say the "BALL" is in your court:

[CFF] Ephesians
[FLEET] ζЂïεηΞςЂưηζ
[NeM] Bindel™
[GOMN] Ace Rimmer
[GRITS] VENO



Ace and Ephesians have both rolled the ball a little as the GOMN/CFF NAP has been dismantled.

~EW

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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby Face Rimmer » Thu 09 May, 2013 15:33

Tbh EW it doesnt really help the server all that much. It only creates 2 sides, GOMN/FLEET and CFF/NeM/GRITS/GN. This is what I have been trying to avoid and this is why GOMN has had a pact with CFF for so long. But when you have CFF shielding NeM/GRITS since the last server war, whether its intentional or not, it gets to a point where you have to a draw a line in the sand. Months ago I was told by Ephesians that if we made a move on the NeM blob and CFF were in the general vicinity then they would have no option but to intervene. So it was a pact that only benefited CFF because it kept their meatshield safe from us.

Since I created this thread I have given CFF a proposal where if they were willing to drop relations with Nem and/or GRITS we would drop not only pacts with CFF but we would also drop FLEET too. Which would of blown the server wide open and created loads of fun.

The other proposal was that if GOMN officially declared war on not only NeM but GRITS too, would CFF and FLEET stay out of the conflict.
GOMN 5.2bil fleet
NeM/GRITS 8.9bil fleet
Pretty fair fight by any means

Both these proposal were rejected after a few days thought. That means they actually did think about throwing you to the wolves NeM & GRITS! Not that you care anyways its clear you are the sheeples of delta who have been shepparded around as meatshields in your whole guilds existence. I challenge anyone to show me facts that state otherwise!

So its clear that no leg work what so ever has been done by other guilds to encourage more life on the server which was expected by most I am sure. I feel like I have failed to an extent, resorting to another long drawn out server war. Only this time 1 side is not likely to move this side of Christmas so the future looks pretty gloomy for delta as a whole.

The proposals I have made still stand and if you would like to accept either of them or discuss amendments to them then post your thoughts here because it needs to be done out in the open.

Smoke me a kipper I'll be back for breakfast
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Re: How much seasoning does your delta need?

Postby ζЂïεηΞςЂưηζ » Fri 10 May, 2013 01:31

The dismantling of the CFF/GOMN Nap has no real effect on the current situation. After the last War FLEET has only kept 1 Nap from that war and that is with GOMN. We also have a NAP with DARK/SWARM/CBMS who was initially given a nap so that one less guild would be hunting them down so that it may be easier to rebuild. Those smaller guilds are still chased around by the other top guilds viciously. We can still do more to help support growth and so can the other Top Guilds. The smaller guilds only need to do a little diplomacy and FLEET will do what it can to help.

Unless CFF/NeM makes a change then I don't see a whole lot that can be done. I sent NeM a proposal that we would stay out of the war Between GOMN/NeM completely. The only answer I received was from UDAD who quoted Sun Tzu of The Art of War “Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical.” .. Undoubtedly the reasoning for staying in the 70's for 6+ Months?

At least CFF moved to another JG in the same Galaxy this past weekend.

The top 5 in Delta is not a whole lot different then Alpha except they encourage the smaller guilds to grow. And from what I understand they are each its own power block? CFF Should be able to hold it own. 10 Billion fleet? Nem the same. Grits I can understand needs to hang out with a big boy but I would give those guys a NAP if it meant they would move out of the 70's.

Now Ace and I have made it clear what GOMN & FLEET are willing to do. Hell we even discussed doing it sooner then later just to make our lives more exciting. So the BIG question is what will the others do?


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