Defense could be less stupid

[blobb]

Hi there,

I thought I posted this before, but apparently, I did not...well

I think the defense is a bit to stupid right now.

For example:

#1 I have a big pile of turrets and shields on a planet and some ships in it.
An enemy comes around and throws fighters at my base until my ships are destroyed. He then proceeds to park his fleet in my orbit (remember, still packed with defense) and starts to gather the debris.
Right now, there is no way I can use the defense to get rid of him. I mean...hes parking there, and my turrets are in range, but they just can't shoot...If I would be a defensive minister and someone would see that the enemy can do in our airspace whatever they want without getting shot down...boy I would be in trouble.

and the defense is not helping if I attack in my orbit!

#2 Why not implement the feature to hide the ships...or certain amount of ships (maybe a new building: hangar) behind the deff and set an alarm take-off at xx% of defense value or like "if enemyshipsvalue > playerdefensivevalue; ships start; nothing"


tl;dr

1. I want to shoot down fleets in my orbit with the defense even if none of my ships is around
2. I want the defense to help, even if I am the attacker in my orbit
please


Regards

[CrazynTough Kiwi]

FMR.

Also, that's what you have shipyards for.

[blobb]

care to explain what you mean?

[Wlerin]

... my turrets are in range...

No they aren't.

1. I want to shoot down fleets in my orbit with the defense even if none of my ships is around
2. I want the defense to help, even if I am the attacker in my orbit
please

No.

With one exception, all of your turrets are on the planet's surface, while your ships are out in space. And, just because an enemy fleet is at the same coordinates doesn't mean it's close enough to your base for your defenses to fire on it--space is rather huge. You have two choices:
1) Wait for them to come in range of your defenses (i.e. attack)
2) Send your fleet out to attack, without benefit of the planetary defenses.

[blobb]

... my turrets are in range...

No they aren't.

Yes they are...the previous fight (his fighters against my ships and defense) was in my orbit, so the debris is in my orbit too, if they come and gather the debris, they are in range.

1. I want to shoot down fleets in my orbit with the defense even if none of my ships is around
2. I want the defense to help, even if I am the attacker in my orbit
please

No.

With one exception, all of your turrets are on the planet's surface, while your ships are out in space. And, just because an enemy fleet is at the same coordinates doesn't mean it's close enough to your base for your defenses to fire on it--space is rather huge. You have two choices:
1) Wait for them to come in range of your defenses (i.e. attack)
2) Send your fleet out to attack, without benefit of the planetary defenses.

[/quote]

1) see above...
2) see above too...

And space may be huge, but since an attack on the same coordinates (my planet for example) is carried out immediately after clicking "attack" it's safe to assume that the fleets are in firing range when standing there.

The way the defense works right now is rather illogical and I don't want to completely overhaul the system, but being active and having only deff and no ships around shouldn't be an disadvantage for me. My(!) orbit shouldn't be abusable as gathering place or parking lot for others...

[CrazynTough Kiwi]

Shipyards have the astonishing ability to produce units, like for example fighters which are entirely capable of what you want to do, which is attack the recyclers and deal damage to them. Double prod fighters even, if you feel like paying to dish out more hurt. That's one option you have as a player. Another option you have, although more on the preventative side is to ensure you have a proper fleet to match your defenses. A hundred fighters and ten frigates will simply not cut it when you're got 1 level of prings. 1k fighters plus 20 heavy cruisers or 1 dreadnought is a much more preferable defense.

You see, you as the player already are able to prevent and respond to the scenario you now face. If you do not, then it may happen that you have your fleet stripped from underneath your base, as you did. It's a perfectly valid tactic that has existed for the majority of the game's lifetime. What's more, there are plenty of likely abuse cases that can spring from the change you suggested, which by the way is a Frequently Made Request. (FMR)

I could counterpoint your realism argument by saying ships are extremely fast or something, but I learned a long time ago that AE > Realism. Good game mechanics trump what you think should make sense. Like for example, have you not noticed that battles take place instantaneously? Up to millions of craft, all fire shots simultaneously that arrive at their targets that same split second, even the missiles? Battles start and finish the very instant you click 'Start Battle.' A Leviathan, reduced to 1% of it's hitpoints, repaired in the blink of an eye. Doesn't that sound odd to you?

[Wlerin]

Yes they are...the previous fight (his fighters against my ships and defense) was in my orbit, so the debris is in my orbit too, if they come and gather the debris, they are in range.

Sorry, but that doesn't follow.

Static defenses can only defend, not attack. If you want to attack then use fleet.

[MiraclesHappen]

I concur that it would make sense for debris to be protected by a base's defenses. In other words, for debris to not be collected if the base owner has active defenses and you are not the base owner, or in the base owners Guild. As the OP noted those debris are (usually) going to be in orbit over the bases since that is where his defending fleet was when it was attacked (we know this since the defenses were defending the fleet in the earlier fight, right?).

That would be a logical change to the game.

Allowing planetary defenses to attack a fleet in the same system as the base, however, is a different issue. As noted, that fleet could be anywhere while the defenses are tied to the planet. The only logical time we could presume the opposing fleet was over the planet and therefore in range would be if that opposing fleet had recyclers and they were turned on and there were debris over that base. In that circumstance the opposing fleet would have to be over the planet to collect the debris there, and thus in range of the defenses. Sooo if you dont change it to allow defenses to protect debris passively (debris cant be collected) then allowing the base to attack recylcing fleets would make sense.

Of course there is one minor exception to the above that would not be logical, which is when a fleet of a third party is destroyed and that debris is collected. Since the bases were not defending that third party fleet (which imo is silly for guild mates but thats another thread), there is no reason to presume they are in range of that debris. However that exception is probably rare enough to ignore it and go with the logic above. IMO.

So +1 to the OPs first point.

[MiraclesHappen]

...AE > Realism. Good game mechanics trump what you think should make sense....

Positively.

But where game mechanics are neutral to the point, giving "realism" or logic and reasonable player expectations a nod is not a bad idea.

Forcing a debris gatherer to fear planetary defenses or destroy them before looting an orbit would hardly be bad for game mechanics.

It would, in fact be GOOD game mechanics, rewarding a defending player for having strong enough defenses that he was able to repel an attack.

And it makes the proper player happy. If the base owner won the field (and he did as the attacker was forced to stop attacking without conquest), he should win the debris as the laurels of that victory, right?

Moreover, as is a player could use the current system to transfer debris to another player. He could attack a third party base with a ton of weak ships, creating a debris field over that third players planet, and then his buddy could recycle the debris there. Or even use this added debris as a motivation for HIM to attack and conquer the third party planet. That's crappy mechanics. Make the derb transfer happen over a base of one of the trading partners - let THEM make their bases juicier if they want to play shenanigans. This would be accomplished by allowing derb collection only over your own, or undefended, or guildmate bases.

[Whis]

AE =/= RL

Defenses need some sort of boost, but this isn't it.