May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

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May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Whis » Fri 02 May, 2014 01:54

In the third instalment of FMR reviews, we will be discussing combining servers.

I have always been intrigued by the idea and have seen ideas on how it could be done. Let's make a good effort and put together the most comprehensive thread on combining servers to date.

As before:
A few simple rules:

1). Any derailment of a thread will be considered spam and treated as such.

2). Don't debate someone's ability to add input, debate the topics. If this happens I will consider it spam and treat it as such.

3). Don't just link an old thread; if you link a thread, be sure to give a description of the arguments, both pro and con. The more thorough the better.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Ferdoc » Fri 02 May, 2014 03:56

First and foremost this is a physical impossibility as stated by Wizard in the past. So unless Wizard or Mike comes forward to state there is a possibility of it occurring this idea is dead in the water.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Wlerin » Fri 02 May, 2014 06:08

It's never impossible, Ferdoc. Anything (requiring code) can be done, just a question of whether it's worth the effort (there may be quite a bit of effort required).

Code issues aside I really don't see why anyone would want this. Well, aside from Arnie Rimmer & co. wanting to challenge the Royals with fleet from 8 servers ago.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Firefox » Fri 02 May, 2014 12:37

I got an account in server A, and an account in server B. Suddenly they merge. I'm now multi-man! Able to leap through servers in a single ISP!

In case some don't get it, that was sarcasm.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Rajam » Tue 06 May, 2014 22:47

I think that server merges are going to become mandatory at some point. Some of the less populated servers will either need an infusion of players or be retired as they decline in popularity.

The easiest solution is to allow people to transfer account Tech & Fleet between servers. These are two things that are player specific and have relatively little impact on other players. Since tech is soft capped and fleet is about to be the impact on new servers will be relatively minor. If you were over the fleet cap then you couldn't bring over more than the cap.

Another option is to allow your account Tech only to be shared across all servers.

You could offer a paid service where everything you own is transferred, astro's and all. When the exact same planet in the same system isn't available you are given a comparable one. ie. Crater/Planet X12:34:76:20 is what you currently own. The closest matching Crater/Planet is X12:34:44:20. You would search the region your currently in for the exact same match. If nothing was available in the destination region you could go clockwise starting at 12:00 until you found the exact match. This would be in concentric rings. Obviously this would pose a problem for hidden astros but that might be the price you pay for moving. This would be tedium on the dev's part(Matching everything up), which i why it would be a paid service, but it could be done.

I had more here but when you start getting into the complexities it really becomes tough.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Dr Rush » Wed 07 May, 2014 20:18

Keeping in mind that the astro distribution is completely different between servers. Where one has a rocky planet another will have a tundra & another nothing at all. That leaves four palatable options for map layout;

1. Add all of server Y's clusters onto the end server X's clusters, in the same manner that new clusters are added to an existing server. Leaving the new server with the same layout as a normal server but twice the number of clusters.

Pro's;
-Comparitavly simple
-Hidden JGs remain hidden
-Astros retain the same cords
-Would be difficult to bottle neck traffic between the two servers.

Con's;
-Leave's a sever astro density problem


2. Connect server X's uppers to server Y's lowers & Y's uppers to X's lowers. Forming a figure-8 pattern.

Pro's;
-Hidden JGs remain hidden
-Astros retain the same cords

Con's;
-Leave's a sever astro density problem
-Allow's for rather OP trade routes
-Traffic between the servers could easily be bottlenecked


3. Add another layer to the map system. With the servers being related & traveled between in same manner as clusters are currently.

Pro's;
-Hidden JGs remain hidden
-Astros retain the same cords
-Strongholds remain strongholds

Con's;
-Complicated
-Leave's a sever astro density problem
-Allow's for rather OP trade routes
-Requires at least 3 servers to work


4. All of Y's occupied astros are put in their corresponding systems on X. If the system doesn't exist it is created. If the slot is already occupied on X then the Y astro is placed directly under it's X counterpart in the same system. All Y astro retain their Y headed cords.

Pro's;
-Mostly fixes the astro density problem
-Cords remain the same

Con's;
-Horrendously complicated to code I'm sure
-What's a stronghold?
-Hidden JG's may no longer be hidden
-Results in multiple planets occupying the same slot in a given system.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Rajam » Wed 07 May, 2014 20:33

You know, after reading your post wouldn't it be easiest to just take server A and add it to the last opened cluster of server B? You could foreseeably link every server in the game this way. You would have galaxy X400:12:34:56 but......

The biggest inconvenience would be that the people placed wherever the upper galaxy was wouldn't be at the end of the line any more but that would limit the inconvenience to the smallest number of people.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Dr Rush » Thu 08 May, 2014 04:24

That would be what I listed as option 1. Though my preference is for option 3.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Rajam » Thu 08 May, 2014 04:34

Oh, sorry, didn't read it that way but your right.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Ron Burgandy » Thu 08 May, 2014 05:37

Straight from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109308
Mike wrote:Because this is a very popular request and someday something must be done to avoid <100 players on a server, this is what we possible can do:

Exodus Escape Option:
Through a global ID the player would initiate an escape to another universe. during the travel he will have limit space for the voyage so its impossible to move all bases/fleets to another universe but it will be possible to safe a big part of the player empire.
Players who activate this options will have their empire on the old universe terminated.
The old universe would then collapse once the players were moved voluntarily.


PS: this is just a personal opinion and there are currently no plans to do this.


So yes, a developer has thought about the concept being implemented.

My idea in the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109308&start=15

Ron Burgandy wrote:While reading Mike's idea and the responses following, I got an idea that may be workable:

Each server with 500 members or less, or as soon as a server reaches 500 members, a server is effectively shut down. The players in the server continue to be able to go on as normal hitting each other and NPC's; however, a mass email goes out to all accts and they are given the choice to move to a new server. 

Once the old server reaches 100 members, all existing accts are relocated to the lowers X00 to X09. This would put 10 players per galaxy; with an average of 20 bases each, that would be 200 bases per galaxy. All bases keep their structures and are relocated to Astros with the same metal and crystal stats. (these are stats not currently changeable with techs) Energy stats are not necessarily kept during the switch. To offset this, a three month lift of the limitations of terraforms and multilevel platforms will allow a player to add the extra space for the needed energy structures. (if a base ends up with negative energy, the base is treated as having no available energy until a positive number is true) For trades, the distances are multiplied by 2.5 (trades within the same galaxy are distance of 500, three galaxies away are 1500 and nine galaxies away are 4500. Travel distance is not changed. Once a player deletes or becomes inactive, his bases turn UC as normal, but one base at random becomes Drekon (will help provide a decent target for remaining players.)

Two options for a player to move:
1) Maximum of 100million fleet, quarter of credits in the bank, 2/3 of bases relocated in the manner described above for players staying in their old server(bases chosen by player, round up to nearest whole number), all research/construction credits banked, half of credits of prod from bases not relocated, all tech, all queues relocated with bases that are relocated (research currently going on base with links is completed as it would with all links, rest of the queues are completed as it should based on the new research cap.) 

2) Maximum of 150 million fleet, half of credits in bank, all bases relocated in the manner described above for players  staying in their old server, all queues moved with bases.

Option 1 is free, option 2 is the cost of a six month upgrade (idea thanks to DS)

People with accounts in multiple servers only get to move one acct to new server, other accts can continue on in old server.

New server, for the purpose of the example, will be referred to as server X. 

Server X is opened like a new server, old accts are moved to the new server sequentially until a galaxy is "full" then another galaxy opens. 500 people should easily fit in two clusters, max of 5 bases per region?(mental math)

When a new server is moved, two more galaxy clusters are opened up, but travel into the new clusters isn't possible for 30 days (or whatever the time limit is for new servers, cannot remember off the top of my head)

To help prevent the same ending that the old servers will inevitably suffer, a few changes need made:
Max blob sizes (would need help with finalizing an idea)
Max guild sizes lowered (50)
Wormholes need damage reapplied


Lots of good discussion in that thread

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Beets » Fri 16 May, 2014 19:53

Dr Rush wrote:3. Add another layer to the map system. With the servers being related & traveled between in same manner as clusters are currently.

Pro's;
-Hidden JGs remain hidden
-Astros retain the same cords
-Strongholds remain strongholds

Con's;
-Complicated
-Leave's a sever astro density problem
-Allow's for rather OP trade routes
-Requires at least 3 servers to work
I like this one. I can't weigh in on the complications as I don't understand how the game is coded and hosted. Conceptually it's easy. The distance between clusters is always 2K, and it's the same here. No bases are moved, and the max trade distance is still 5,600 - so no fundamental changes to econ. I'm not sure Dr Rush and I see this the same way, so I'll elaborate.

Currently the galaxy changes shape depending on what cluster you're currently in. For example if you're in the 40's it looks like this:

Code: Select all

 A00    A10   A20   A30   
 A01    A11   A21   A31   
 A02    A12   A22   A32   
 A03    A13   A23   A33   
 A04    A14   A24   A34   
 A05    A15   A25   A35   
 A06    A16   A26   A36   
 A07    A17   A27   A37   
 A08    A18   A28   A38   
 A09    A19   A29   A39   
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
A40            
A41            
A42            
A43            
A44            
A45            
A46            
A47            
A48            
A49            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
            
A50   A60   A70   A80   A90
A51   A61   A71   A81   A91
A52   A62   A72   A82   A92
A53   A63   A73   A83   A93
A54   A64   A74   A84   A94
A55   A65   A75   A85   A95
A56   A66   A76   A86   A96
A57   A67   A77   A87   A97
A58   A68   A78   A88   A98
A59   A69   A79   A89   A99

The distance from one line of text to the next is 200, and a player can only travel up and down, not left and right. When they move clusters, the shape of the galaxy changes. From the A0x cluster it looks like this:

Code: Select all

 A00                         
 A01                         
 A02                         
 A03                         
 A04                         
 A05                         
 A06                         
 A07                         
 A08                         
 A09                         
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
A10   A20   A30   A40   A50   A60   A70   A80   A90
A11   A21   A31   A41   A51   A61   A71   A81   A91
A12   A22   A32   A42   A52   A62   A72   A82   A92
A13   A23   A33   A43   A53   A63   A73   A83   A93
A14   A24   A34   A44   A54   A64   A74   A84   A94
A15   A25   A35   A45   A55   A65   A75   A85   A95
A16   A26   A36   A46   A56   A66   A76   A86   A96
A17   A27   A37   A47   A57   A67   A77   A87   A97
A18   A28   A38   A48   A58   A68   A78   A88   A98
A19   A29   A39   A49   A59   A69   A79   A89   A99
If we added another server we could shape it like so, and all the trades, and movement methods would remain the same:

Code: Select all

 A00    A10   A20   A30    B00     B10     B20     B30    
 A01    A11   A21   A31    B01     B11     B21     B31    
 A02    A12   A22   A32    B02     B12     B22     B32    
 A03    A13   A23   A33    B03     B13     B23     B33    
 A04    A14   A24   A34    B04     B14     B24     B34    
 A05    A15   A25   A35    B05     B15     B25     B35    
 A06    A16   A26   A36    B06     B16     B26     B36    
 A07    A17   A27   A37    B07     B17     B27     B37    
 A08    A18   A28   A38    B08     B18     B28     B38    
 A09    A19   A29   A39    B09     B19     B29     B39    
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
A40                        
A41                        
A42                        
A43                        
A44                        
A45                        
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A49                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
                        
A50   A60   A70   A80   A90    B40     B50     B60     B70
A51   A61   A71   A81   A91    B41     B51     B61     B71
A52   A62   A72   A82   A92    B42     B52     B62     B72
A53   A63   A73   A83   A93    B43     B53     B63     B73
A54   A64   A74   A84   A94    B44     B54     B64     B74
A55   A65   A75   A85   A95    B45     B55     B65     B75
A56   A66   A76   A86   A96    B46     B56     B66     B76
A57   A67   A77   A87   A97    B47     B57     B67     B77
A58   A68   A78   A88   A98    B48     B58     B68     B78
A59   A69   A79   A89   A99    B49     B59     B69     B79

Imho, the difficulty in merging servers comes with the politics and what to do when a player has accounts on both servers. If a set of players has Ixion and Juno won, what really happens when they're merged? Looks like more of the same to me. What do you do with the multiple accounts?

A really good option is just to leave it how it is. If a server dies, then it does. It becomes a new playground for anybody who wants it.

Another option is to put end dates on servers. The drawback for this is a server like Alpha that's still vibrant after all this time could be cut short when there is still a good story left to unfold.

A good option is to make victory conditions for a server. If 66% of the fleet in a server can be assembled into one guild (minimum 1 Billion fleet so you can't win with a single CV), the server is won. The winners get a badge on their account when the server restarts. I really like this one.

The point I'm making here is not to start a new, off-topic discussion. It's that the topic of "how to merge servers" might have the answer of "you don't" because there may be better solutions to the perceived problem of low activity on old servers.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby SilverKnight » Mon 26 May, 2014 00:11

Rajam wrote:I think that server merges are going to become mandatory at some point. Some of the less populated servers will either need an infusion of players or be retired as they decline in popularity.

The easiest solution is to allow people to transfer account Tech & Fleet between servers. These are two things that are player specific and have relatively little impact on other players. Since tech is soft capped and fleet is about to be the impact on new servers will be relatively minor. If you were over the fleet cap then you couldn't bring over more than the cap.

Another option is to allow your account Tech only to be shared across all servers.

You could offer a paid service where everything you own is transferred, astro's and all. When the exact same planet in the same system isn't available you are given a comparable one. ie. Crater/Planet X12:34:76:20 is what you currently own. The closest matching Crater/Planet is X12:34:44:20. You would search the region your currently in for the exact same match. If nothing was available in the destination region you could go clockwise starting at 12:00 until you found the exact match. This would be in concentric rings. Obviously this would pose a problem for hidden astros but that might be the price you pay for moving. This would be tedium on the dev's part(Matching everything up), which i why it would be a paid service, but it could be done.

I had more here but when you start getting into the complexities it really becomes tough.


I think we should consider this question : how low of server population is required to trigger the need to merge it? I would contend fewer than 500 active players. That way 2 full sized guilds ... less than that, merge it with another server with similar, to get the threshold of at least 500 active players.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Ferdoc » Mon 02 Jun, 2014 06:51

And if a person has an account on both servers what do you do then? The obvious answer is force them to select between the two. But then you have just negated possibly years of work of a player. If we do the 250 on each server and there is a 40% population overlap then you're not going to hit 500 active players. You're going to end up 100 players shy of being at 500.

The standard checks won't work either. IP address checks? Could have 2 people at the same IP play 2 different servers to not be forced to pay for the game. Now one gets to keep playing while the other has to quit or they are now forced to pay up. Even working in a way to allow players under such a situation to continue playing without paying comes into a problem, do you do that with E-mail address checks? Not bloody likely to work. I use a different e-mail for each of the servers I play. Should those 3 servers somehow combine I would have 3 accounts I could potentially run should we allow those who live with players who play different servers.

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Wlerin » Mon 02 Jun, 2014 07:07

No, the obvious answer is to relax the rules against multi-accounting on merged servers. :dance:

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Re: May 2014 FMR review - combining servers

Postby Hayley » Sat 07 Jun, 2014 07:32

You could have a battle royale server.


Call it server X

Place it equidistant from all servers past a certain age( like 2-3 years. Up for debate) or use a special wormhole

Units from other servers can jump to this new server. They can only travel back to their server of origin


For example a guild from alpha could launch to X and fight a guild from beta or whatever.

Make it sufficiently large so there are tactics involved.

Make a rule that players cannot bring multiple accounts to this new server at the same time( if you have an account on alpha and beta. You can't bring both to X)

Have some objectives/bonuses that incentivize people to come to X (drekon homeworlds? Drekon fleets? High Eco United colonies?)


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